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Division No. 3


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Airedale, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bottomley, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Freyberg, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L. [Teller.]
Gladwyn, L.
Glenamara, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B. [Teller.]
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greene of Harrow Weald, L.
Grey, E.
Halsbury, E.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Healey, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Houghton of Sowerby, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jacques, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Listowel, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milne, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mulley, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Robertson of Oakridge, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shannon, E.
Shepherd, L.
Stallard, L.
Stedman, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Whaddon, L.
White, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.


Aberdare, L.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Astor, V.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Borthwick, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buckinghamshire, E.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Buxton of Alsa, L.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Caldecote, V.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crathorne, L.
Cross, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elibank, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Faithfull, B.
Ferrers, E.
Finsberg, L.
Flather, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Goschen, V.
Haddington, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harrowby, E.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hives, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L. [Teller.]
Kinnoull, E.
Lauderdale, E.
Leigh, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Long, V.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Macleod of Borve, B.
Mancroft, L.
Manton, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newall, L.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
Orkney, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Pender, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Renwick, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Romney, E.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Seccombe, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
St. Davids, V.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Swinton, E.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Whitelaw, V.
Wise, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

13 Feb 1995 : Column 481

5.45 p.m.

[Amendment No. 111B not moved.]

13 Feb 1995 : Column 482

Baroness Turner of Camden moved Amendment No. 112:

Page 7, line 22, at end insert ("provided that in no case may the employer appoint all the trustees").

The noble Baroness said: This very simple amendment provides that in no case may the employer appoint all the trustees. Prior to the Goode Report, one of the criticisms frequently made of occupational pension schemes, particularly small pension schemes, was that the employer was too dominant and in many instances where there were no employee trustees the employer appointed all the trustees or acted as the trustee himself.

The whole tenor of the Goode Report and much of the Bill before the Committee, is against that concept. If the Bill is about anything at all it is about empowering the beneficiaries and their dependants. There is now absolutely no reason at all why the employer should ever appoint all the trustees. This part of the Bill specifies that where existing arrangements are acceptable there is no need to change them—at least, that is what it appears to be saying. But that is not acceptable if the employer appoints all the trustees and we must say so on the face of the Bill. I invite the Minister to accept this amendment. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: The noble Baroness has raised an important issue and I acknowledge that the Government did indicate their support for the relevant PLRC recommendation No. 36 in our White Paper in June 1994. However, I believe the underlying point is fully addressed by the statutory consultation procedure. Under this proposed procedure, scheme members will be able to use their statutory right to object to their existing scheme arrangements or to any other suggested constitution of the trust board proposed by an employer. These are the matters which we have just discussed. In this way they can, if they choose, defeat arrangements which give an employer the sole right to appoint trustees.

However, members may be perfectly content with their scheme arrangements, notwithstanding that the employer appoints all the trustees. They may not want a change to something new or to select member-nominated trustees. In these circumstances my instinct is to respect the wishes of members. They, after all, are in the best position to decide the most suitable arrangements for their scheme. The noble Baroness agreed with that when she said—if I got her words right—that we wanted to empower scheme members. That is indeed what our proposed system would do.

The amendment proposed by the noble Baroness would prevent some schemes from keeping their existing arrangements if those arrangements give the employer the sole power to appoint trustees. Many employees enjoy excellent relationships with their employer, and as long as they are happy with an arrangement, it would be wrong for the Government to intervene. I am not convinced that this amendment would ultimately be in the best interests of pension schemes and scheme members and, therefore, I am unable to accept it.

Baroness Turner of Camden: I am somewhat disappointed by the Minister's response. If the onus is put on the schemes to ensure that trustees are appointed and not simply by the employer, one is taking an important

13 Feb 1995 : Column 483

step forward in empowering the members of the scheme. You are saying to them, "It is up to you now; you have to appoint someone". There are many small schemes in existence where individual employees simply would not know about statutory consultation arrangements and statutory rights. Therefore, if something is written on the face of the Bill which makes it obligatory on the employer to set about finding a member trustee, that will eventually be very much in the interest of scheme members. However, it is not my intention to press this amendment to a vote. It is not one of the most crucial before the Committee tonight.

Nevertheless, I feel that it is important to try to underline the fact that that is not an acceptable practice or one that we should in any way seek to encourage. The employer should not be allowed to appoint all the trustees. Everything possible should be done to ensure that the members of the scheme take their responsibilities seriously and set about appointing trustees who will properly represent the beneficiaries' and members' interests. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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