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Lord Rea: Before the Minister sits down will she amplify—ever so slightly—the news that she gave that

28 Mar 1995 : Column 1520

there is now a document in the Library about the future of the postgraduate deans and postgraduate medical education? Will she give us an inkling of what it says?

Baroness Cumberlege: It will be placed in the Library tomorrow. It is a document which has been drawn up after a great deal of consultation with the postgraduate medical deans. It looks at the contracts of junior doctors and other issues that we shall be addressing in later amendments. Basically, it says that contracts for education should be placed with the postgraduate medical deans and contracts for their terms and conditions of service with the trusts.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Before my noble friend replies, perhaps I may ask a question about the £150 million which will be saved. As parliamentarians, we are often told that we will save money, but later we never know how it has been saved. Is it the Government's intention to make reports to Parliament as to how much of the £150 million has been saved and where it has gone?

Baroness Cumberlege: We have given an undertaking that all the money that is saved will go back into patient care. Many of us rejoice at that. Clearly when it comes to the annual public expenditure survey round a great deal of detail is available to Members of this place.

Baroness Jay of Paddington: I thank the Minister for giving that detailed reply to the points raised by me, the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, and my noble friends. The degree to which the Minister was able to give us the detail to some of the points that we raised was a clear indication that she saw that some of the points we made were serious and worthy of such a response. As she said, many of those points will be returned to in subsequent amendments. The issues, especially relating to public health and nurse education, which the Minister herself raised, will be ones which we shall discuss in detail. She may not be surprised to hear that I am not reassured totally at the moment by what she said in general about those and other specific points.

I should like to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, about the quaintness of consultation. What the Minister has just said in her response, especially to my noble friend Lord Rea, about the position the Government are now taking on postgraduate education and the role of the postgraduate deans at the regional level of health organisation is an exact and good example of the way in which consultation after the event—after a Bill is published—is achieved. We all know that when the Bill was first published grave concern was felt, especially by the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals of universities. The Government consulted, with the results that the Minister has been able to announce today.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I am much obliged to the noble Baroness for giving way. The point I was seeking to make was not that consultation in general was ridiculous, but that it could be, and it was, particularly ridiculous in the context in which she proposed it.

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Baroness Jay of Paddington: All I can say to the noble Lords is that the Minister has demonstrated, in particular in relation to a complicated measure such as this, that consultation after the event—after a Bill has been published, and after it has been considered, as it has in this case, by one House of Parliament—can result in an interesting and useful amendment which is not put on the face of the Bill but which is achieved by consultation outside and leads to a greater understanding and approval of the regulations by those involved. That is the simple point that I was making and the simple point that is contained in the first part of my amendment.

However, I also make the point, as Members of the Committee who were present on Second Reading will know, that we on these Benches firmly opposed the principle of the Bill, which was included in the terms of the abolition of the regional health authorities. I, as a relatively junior Member of this place do not need to remind the Committee that it is not the convention of this place to divide on Second Reading. But if speakers from the Government Benches are now suggesting that it would be appropriate for us to divide on Second Reading when we oppose the principle of a Bill, that is something which I am sure will be of great interest to many Members other than those taking part in the Committee this afternoon.

What has been demonstrated generally this afternoon in our discussion on the substance of the amendment, which of course is the substance of the principle of the Bill, is that there is—if I may call it such a thing—a philosophical divide in the Committee between those on these Benches and those on the Government Benches about the nature of the NHS. We see the abolition of the RHAs as a way of reducing standards of excellence in the NHS and of reducing the public accountability of what is one of our most important public services. For those reasons, I should like to test the opinion of the Committee.

4.25 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 95; Not-Contents, 160.

Division No. 1


Addington, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Avebury, L.
Banks, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bottomley, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chapple, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
David, B.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grey, E.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L. [Teller.]
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Houghton of Sowerby, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
Scanlon, L.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L. [Teller.]
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.


Acton, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Ampthill, L.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Bethell, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Broadbridge, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colnbrook, L.
Cornwallis, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Downshire, M.
Dundonald, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Faithfull, B.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Fraser of Kilmorack, L.
Gage, V.
Gainford, L.
Gainsborough, E.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gisborough, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Gray, L.
Gridley, L.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayter, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Hives, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L. [Teller.]
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Killearn, L.
Kimberley, E.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Knollys, V.
Lauderdale, E.
Liverpool, Bp.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orkney, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pike, B.
Rankeillour, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Richardson, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Shannon, E.
Sharples, B.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
St. Davids, V.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vaux of Harrowden, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Winchester, Bp.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

28 Mar 1995 : Column 1523

4.34 p.m.

Baroness Jay of Paddington moved Amendment No. 2:

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