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Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply but must express disappointment. Her reply indicates a failure by the Government to recognise the pressures that exist on the limited availability of housing throughout the country and the vulnerability of this group of people. I feel therefore that I should test the opinion of the House.

3.39 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 78; Not-Contents, 132.

Division No. 1


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Avebury, L.
Banks, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Grey, E.
Halsbury, E.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L. [Teller.]
Nelson, E.
Nicol, B.
Northfield, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.


Aberdare, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Ampthill, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Constantine of Stanmore, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crawshaw, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Downshire, M.
Dundonald, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Finsberg, L.
Foley, L.
Fraser of Kilmorack, L.
Gainford, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gray, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Gridley, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Hood, V.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L. [Teller.]
Ironside, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Kintore, E.
Kitchener, E.
Lauderdale, E.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Macleod of Borve, B.
Manchester, D.
Manton, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newall, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Brien of Lothbury, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Peel, E.
Pender, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rathcaven, L.
Rawlings, B.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Richardson, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
St. Davids, V.
Seccombe, B.
Sempill, Ly.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Swinton, E.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Teynham, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thurlow, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vaux of Harrowden, L.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Wise, L.
Wynford, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

1 May 1995 : Column 1217

3.47 p.m.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 5:

Page 2, line 22, at end insert:
("( ) The Health Authority and Social Services Authority shall, in providing after-care services, indicate how they propose to deal with the matters listed in section 117 and Schedule 1 below.").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 5, I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 6, 9 and 16. These amendments deal with the importance of the process whereby the care package which is deemed to be suitable is agreed and is checked for resourcing to be fully in place. In Committee and earlier this afternoon the Minister spoke about the importance of the process of working together. It is critically important that that process is set out and embedded in the legislation in order to ensure that all parties—all those with a role to play—dealing with this particularly vulnerable group of people have all the component parts of the care package in place to the professional satisfaction of those involved in the process of determining the care package. It is therefore vitally important that there is an explicit indication from the health authority and the social services authority in providing those services how they intend to deal with matters listed in Clause 117 and Schedule 1.

It is critically important for those with a professional responsibility who must exercise judgment in this critical and potentially dangerous situation that there is an opportunity for them to exercise that professional judgment, as Amendment No. 6 states, by incorporating and including the opportunity to refuse such a package as being inappropriate. It must also surely be the case that a health authority or social services authority should have the right to refuse a supervision order if it deems it to be impossible for it—that is, the authority—to meet the terms of that order in a way that it feels is professionally satisfactory.

Finally, the importance of Amendment No. 16 is that it stresses that the services must be available. It is not satisfactory when dealing with a very vulnerable group

1 May 1995 : Column 1218

of people to say that the services in the package would be identified as satisfactory but that they are not fully available at all times to meet in full and in every way the needs that have been defined.

This is such a critical area that it is not necessary for me to remind your Lordships that the background to the legislation is what has happened when things go wrong and tragedy occurs and when there is a failure on the part of those who are supposed to be involved in the process of looking to the needs of both the patient and the community. It is therefore obvious that it is essential that all those professional components come together to the satisfaction of the authorities involved.

The Minister referred at previous stages to the consultation process and said that there will be consultation. All of us who have been involved in political and public life are aware that consultation can take a variety of forms. Perhaps the Minister will forgive me if I refer now to the fact that the consultation through discussion which has been pioneered at earlier stages of the passage of legislation is a good example. We have also in public and political life come across consultation with other parties which has taken the form of the delivery of a statement of intent with a request for comments, which are then duly noted, although the original intent is carried out without further to-do. In cases involving such a vulnerable group of people, it is critically important that that process does not occur. It is critically important that the process involves working together to mutual satisfaction to ensure that the package that is put in place will be effective, that it will be monitored and that it will meet the challenges. That is why this group of amendments deserves support. I beg to move.

Lord Rea: My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friend in this amendment. The Government should welcome this group of amendments because they put teeth into the aftercare package which should form part of a supervision order.

The amendment counters a criticism that has been made of the Bill—that the Bill substitutes an authoritarian legalistic measure for the proper care in the community which many people feel is the real thing that is lacking. If there was proper care in the community, the tragedies that we have seen would be less likely to occur. The amendments would ensure that a working package was put in place so that patients who were discharged would not feel lost but would know what was going to happen. The amendments would also ensure that the people who were going to help would know what their duties were.

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