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Lord Campbell of Alloway: Perhaps I may very briefly thank the Minister for the concession on new Clauses 6A and 6B. Is it right that that concession really seeks to implement any interpretation that can be put on the report of the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee, whereas on no interpretation of that committee's report can it be said to be requisite to give that concession on new Clause 6B? Is that the basis on which the concession is made? If so, I should like to support it and express my own personal gratitude for the manner in which the Government have produced Amendment No. 4 and compliment the draftsman on a truly magnificent piece of work.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: Perhaps I may briefly respond. I thought that I might do better in the marking system of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, than one out of three. All I can say is that with a marker as hard as that, thank goodness I am not one of his students! So that I do not dip below that one mark, I accept the point he made that because I have extended what was one clause into three clauses, there are, if one counted them, more individual positions where there is a delegated power. That is because the draftsman has advised tackling it in the way which the Committee sees before it.

The substantive point I am asked is why have I only dealt with new Clauses 6 and 6A and not accepted the argument on new Clause 6B? I believe that my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway put his finger exactly on the point. The Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee says in paragraph 10 of its Further Report on the Jobseekers Bill:

11 May 1995 : Column 210

The simple fact is that new Clause 6 in my name deals with availability and new Clause 6A deals with actively seeking. New Clause 6B does not deal with either of them in the defining way that new Clauses 6 and 6A do. It deals with matters like attendance at the Jobcentre and the information and evidence which the jobseeker should make available to the Employment Service and the Jobcentre officer.

I believe that I have addressed directly the point made by the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee. I have done so in the promise that I have made to bring forward an amendment at Clause 34 in order to do as has been suggested and to make regulations under new Clauses 6 and 6A always under the affirmative order and not, as currently proposed, only for a limited period and thereafter by the negative procedure.

The noble Lord, Lord Richard, may not agree with me, but I hope that he can see why I have reached this position because I have taken the very strong recommendations of the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee and the various opinions expressed in this Chamber. I like to think that I have done a little better than one mark out of three in actually responding positively to the recommendations. For that reason, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, will be able to withdraw his amendment which now really centres only on an argument over new Clause 6B. If he does not, I hope that my noble friends, and other Members of the Committee who take an interest in these matters, will accept that I have gone a long way to respond to the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee and that they will support me in the Lobby.

Lord Richard: I am very sorry indeed that the Minister, in his generous spirit this afternoon, has not found it possible to include new Clause 6B as well as new Clause 6A. I can see why he has left it out and I fully understand the reasons for that. But the merits of the argument have not been dealt with. The Minister has merely analysed why he has not dealt with it. I cannot respond to his blandishments even if I were to give him one-and-a-half marks out of three. It still seems right to test the opinion of the Committee on the other one-and-a-half marks.

5.39 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 105; Not-Contents, 161.

Division No. 1


Addington, L.
Airedale, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Barnett, L.
Bath, M.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Birk, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chorley, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Desai, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Foot, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Greene of Harrow Weald, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harris of Greenwich, L. [Teller.]
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Houghton of Sowerby, L.
Howell, L.
Hughes, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacques, L.
Jay, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Lawrence, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mayhew, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Scanlon, L.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shannon, E.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Stedman, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tonypandy, V.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whaddon, L.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.


Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Biddulph, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmer, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clinton, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colnbrook, L.
Constantine of Stanmore, L.
Cork and Orrery, E.
Cornwallis, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crathorne, L.
Cross, V.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
De L'Isle, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Digby, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donegall, M.
Eden of Winton, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elton, L.
Faithfull, B.
Ferrers, E.
Finsberg, L.
Flather, B.
Foley, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Goold, L.
Goschen, V.
Gridley, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hertford, M.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hood, V.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Tanworth, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
Ingrow, L.
Jeffreys, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
King of Wartnaby, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Knollys, V.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Leigh, L.
Lindsay, E.
Long, V. [Teller.]
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Macleod of Borve, B.
Malmesbury, E.
Marlesford, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Nelson, E.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
Orkney, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Prior, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Romney, E.
St. Davids, V.
Saint Oswald, L.
Salisbury, M.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stockton, E.
Strafford, E.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Terrington, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wise, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wynford, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

11 May 1995 : Column 212

5.48 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 not moved.]

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