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Lord Henley: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his congratulations to me personally and for his implied congratulations to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on bringing together the two departments of Education and Employment. As the noble Lord is fully aware, the point of the merger is to provide a degree of focus for all the policies and programmes which are designed to educate and train both young people and adults and to equip and re-equip them for work. On the noble Lord's specific questions about the Teacher Training Agency, I assure him that the Teacher Training Agency has already made its mark as an agency committed to improving the quality of teaching and learning. We shall be fully behind further improvements in the standard of teacher training. We believe that there is yet much more to be done.

Lord Haskel: My Lords, perhaps I too may offer the Minister congratulations on his new appointment. Does he agree with me that nowadays there is no clear dividing line between vocational and non-vocational education and training? Does he agree that that is because in today's knowledge-based world of work employers place much more emphasis on the ability to learn and to continue learning rather than on the application of specific knowledge?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks. I fully agree with the sentiments that he has expressed on the divide between vocational and academic education. I believe that for far too long there has been perceived to be a divide between the two. We believe that that divide is false. I hope that the new merger of the two departments will allow us to continue to prove that that division is false.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, now that education and training have been brought within the ambit of one government department, as proposed two years ago by the National Commission on Education, will the Government now examine the possibility of establishing a framework for an integrated modular system of qualifications at 16 to 18, embracing the best

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of GCSEs, A-Levels, NVQs and GNVQs, so that young people who so wish can take a combination of vocational and academic subjects?

Lord Henley: My Lords, the noble Lord makes some interesting and complicated suggestions to someone who has been in the department for a matter of just three days, and I have to say that two of those were spent on the beach with my wife and children. I take note of what the noble Lord had to say and I shall certainly pass it on to my right honourable friend the new Secretary of State for Employment and Education.

Lord Ezra: My Lords, does the Minister agree that every time we have had a recovery in the post-war period we have been short of skilled labour; that the real problem in Britain today is that, on the one hand, we have substantial unemployment and, on the other hand, there is a mismatch between what industry requires and the labour available? Will it be a prime objective of the new enlarged department to try to deal with that problem once and for all?

Lord Henley: My Lords, one of the new department's prime objectives is obviously to deal with our general competitiveness. Competitiveness in education plays an important part in ensuring that we have the right people with the right skills to meet the changing labour market. As the noble Lord on the Labour Front Bench said earlier, the important point is that people acquire the art of learning so that they can go on developing their skills and education over the years rather than think that they can rely on one skill that they acquired at the beginning of their career to see them through to the end.

Baroness David: My Lords, how does the Minister think that the recently announced scheme of vouchers for nursery education will contribute to the general improvement, when that scheme has been condemned by a great many well-informed educational circles?

Lord Henley: My Lords, it has been condemned by one or two people, but it has been supported by a great many people. I am sorry that the noble Baroness and the party opposite did not ask to have the Statement on nursery education repeated in this House last week. If they had done so, we could have debated this matter at some length and I hope that I would have been able to convince the noble Baroness—if it is possible to convince the noble Baroness—of the virtues of that scheme. Put simply, it offers parents a much greater degree of choice, and through that choice will allow them to develop nursery education to the benefit of all concerned.

Lord Quirk: My Lords, with respect to paragraph 7.5 of this White Paper, may I just ask if the Government will institute regular and rigorous international comparisons of education performance and be ready to emulate best practice in other countries, not excluding Scotland?

Lord Henley: My Lords, we are always prepared to emulate best practice in all other countries, including Scotland. In the main, our comparisons with our main competitors show that we are doing rather well,

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particularly in matters such as graduate output. In terms of measuring comparisons precisely, it is a difficult art to produce meaningful accurate comparisons over a wide range of qualifications throughout all different countries. The basic point that the noble Lord is putting, that we should seek to learn from the best practice of our competitors, is one that I am more than happy to endorse.

Baroness Brigstocke: My Lords, perhaps I, too, may congratulate my noble friend the Minister on his new appointment. Does he agree that one of the good results of the Government's work over the past few years is that many more girls are obtaining qualifications and therefore they will, of course, strengthen the employment position in this country? Does my noble friend agree that one third of girls are now leaving school with at least one A-Level, and that there are now more than twice the number of women in full-time education after leaving school than there were 25 years ago?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for those remarks. They are remarks that we can accept. As regards general employment levels of women in the labour market, I can assure my noble friend that we already have the second highest participation rate of women in the labour market of all our European competitors.

The Earl of Longford: My Lords, as an old educationist may I say how horrified I am by the whole muddle involved in this change? Is the Minister aware that all educationists are aware that what he has been trying to do for young people has nothing whatever to do with solving the problem of the unemployed?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I fail to see how the noble Earl's question follows from what has been said. What we are saying is that we are trying to give a new focus to the work of the Department for Education and the vocational and training work done previously by the Department of Employment. We believe that will help the unemployed.

North Sea Pollution

2.55 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:

    What are their latest estimates of the percentage of pollution of the North Sea caused by land-based sources and of the proportion of this originating from the rivers of Continental North-West Europe.

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, the best estimate which we have is that more than 70 per cent. of man's input of contaminants to the sea comes from land-based sources. Data from different countries are not strictly comparable, but it is clear that continental rivers are the largest source of anthropogenic contamination of the North Sea. Over 50 per cent. of some contaminants come from the rivers which flow into the North Sea

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from the German, Belgian and Dutch coasts. These estimates would be even higher if those countries were to use our rigorous measurement methods.

Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply. Cannot more effective measuring instruments be installed to record the pollution being caused by these North Sea rivers? Will the British Government counter misinformed information about Britain's role in the North Sea by pointing out, among other things, that the Brent Spar was not to be dumped in the North Sea but was to be sunk one-and-a-half miles deep many miles away in the Atlantic, where scientists have advised that it would have little effect on its surroundings?

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, there are already harmonised monitoring arrangements in place for a wide range of contaminants in all UK coastal waters providing measurements in river estuaries at tidal limits. That includes the use of instruments where necessary. I agree with my noble friend's observations about Brent Spar. He is correct in saying that it was to be sunk one-and-a-half miles deep in the Atlantic. In fact less than 1 per cent. of it consists of sludge and scale which is only slightly radioactive. It is as radioactive, I understand, as a street of granite buildings in Aberdeen. It has a little zinc on the outside to help keep off the barnacles, and it contains a few mercury batteries containing some eight ounces of mercury. Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands every year put into the North Sea more than 40 times more copper and 70,000 times more lead than there is in Brent Spar.

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