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Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, as the noble Lord has been kind enough to address a question to me personally, I should, first, remind him that I am not yet a member of Her Majesty's Government, and, therefore, I am not required to answer questions from him. However, as the noble Lord has been courteous enough to put the point, perhaps I may say in reply that I regard the social chapter in the same way that the Select Committee in another place regarded it--namely, as "much ado about nothing".
Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's elucidation of his own particular beliefs about the social chapter. I suspect that they do not fall exactly in line with those of his noble friends on the Front Bench.
Lord Henley: My Lords, that is another question. I do not believe that the answer to creating jobs in this country is one that the noble Baroness wishes to pursue, for example, simply throwing money at the problem. The answer to creating jobs is to create the right economic conditions in which employers take on people and feel it right and proper that they can take on people securely and pay them the right wage.
Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, does the Minister accept that all this nonsense from his side about the social chapter is a kind of mantra? The social chapter itself is a set of very minimal and pious objectives. It does not include matters such as wages, the right of association, the right to strike or the right to impose lock-outs. From our point of view, is not the noble Lord just creating a lot of nonsense here?
Lord Henley: My Lords, I believe that I heard the noble Baroness refer to what was said about the social chapter on her side as being a lot of nonsense. If that is what the noble Baroness said, I totally agree with her.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, the Government do not expect changes to the housing benefit scheme to increase the number of people sleeping rough. The Government plan to make available £73 million over the coming three years in order to continue the rough sleepers' initiative in central London beyond March 1996, when it was due to end. Development of a similar approach in areas outside central London will also be assisted where rough sleeping can be shown to be a major problem.
Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am pleased that he seems to have increased the funding to £73 million from the £50 million which appeared in the September Budget statement. While I accept that the rough sleepers' initiative has helped to reduce the numbers
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, has asked a number of questions. I shall do my best to answer them as succinctly as I can. He is perfectly right to say that the rough sleepers' initiative has been a great success. In 1990 about 1,000 people were sleeping rough and in November of last year it was determined that about 270 were sleeping rough, only three of whom were under 18. That is a reduction of some 75 per cent. Of course that was just a snapshot result on one night but it shows that the scheme has been successful. The noble Lord referred to the figure of £182 million. That was the amount of money that was spent over six years. Some £96 million was spent between 1990 and 1993. Some £86 million was spent between 1994 and 1996 and it is anticipated that £73 million will be spent between 1996 and 1999. I remind the noble Lord that out of the original £182 million over six years, 3,300 units of permanent accommodation have been built--that is, all but a few hundred have been built--and the rest will be completed in the near future.
As regards the important point on housing benefit, I remind the noble Lord that the new arrangements will only affect tenants in the private sector. They will not affect those in local authority accommodation. The new arrangements apply only to new claims and to existing claimants who change their address in the private sector. Housing benefit will meet in full any rent up to the general level of rents in the area. Above the local reference rent, housing benefit will cover half the difference between the reference rent and the full rent charged. I do not think those measures will be likely to result in an increase in those sleeping rough.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, how many of those people will eventually become homeless as a result of the withdrawal of benefit from asylum seekers? What representations has the Minister received from local authorities, and from the London Borough of Westminster in particular, about the increase in costs
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I believe that the question of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is directed principally at or about asylum seekers. As he will know, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is considering the representations which are being made to him at the moment. I remind the noble Lord that in 1995 40,000 people were asylum applicants. There are 41,600 asylum seekers who are currently on income support. Of those who in 1994--those are the most recent figures--applied for asylum, 4 per cent. were granted refugee status, 17 per cent. were granted exceptional leave to remain and 79 per cent. were refused refugee status and yet those are the people to whom the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, seems to consider the Government ought to continue to give housing benefit.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, is the Minister aware that we welcome any financial resources being made available to deal with this problem? Has the Minister had time this weekend to learn of the appalling situation that has developed on the east coast of America where the kind of people we are now discussing are dying because of the horrendous snowfall there? History shows us that often the weather that hits America arrives in this country shortly afterwards. Will the Minister give an undertaking that if that happens the Government will have in place an emergency programme with increased funding to deal with that situation as regards the people we are discussing?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I have tried to point out that those who are normally caught under the rough sleepers' initiative have been dealt with. Those who are left are the most difficult to deal with as they have drink, drug and mental health problems. There is a cold weather shelter scheme in central London which operates from early December to the end of March and which is open to people who would otherwise be at risk from sleeping rough over the winter months. I suggest to the noble Lord that he does not let his imagination run away with him too fast as just because America has severe weather it does not always mean that it will happen here. If we do have that severe weather, it does not necessarily mean that we will have more people sleeping rough.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, I am sorry that because I have mentioned people who are dying in America as a result of severe weather that could occur in this country, the Minister thinks I am letting my imagination run away with me. If that situation occurs here, it will be the Minister and his Government who are at fault.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is perfectly appalling that people in America are dying under the circumstances that have arisen there but that is something over which we in this country have no control. I was merely suggesting that we should not necessarily assume that that situation will be
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