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Lord Callaghan of Cardiff: The noble Lord has been so helpful in accepting the general view of the Committee that it occurs to me to ask why we should not reverse the normal process in the sense that the Bill has come to this Chamber first. We are the first Chamber to consider it and deliberate it. Why should we not ask another place to act in the way that we are normally asked to act, namely, as a revising Chamber? If there are defects in the amendment, let another place put the matter right after the Government have considered it. Would that not be the sensible way forward if this Chamber is to be given the respect it deserves?

Lord Inglewood: The noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, puts forward a sage proposition. It is not inconsistent with what I explained is inherent in our proposals. As I explained, I intend to indicate to noble Lords before Report stage what the Government's position is. That provides opportunities for debate on Report and Third Reading. I am sure the noble Lord is right. This may well be an occasion when it is appropriate for the other place to be the revising Chamber. I am delighted that we seem to be at one on that important point. If those noble Lords proposing the amendment bring it to a vote, I urge the Committee not to support it. We believe that to do so would reduce rather than increase the likelihood of successfully resolving what by any standards is a difficult and far from straightforward conundrum.

Lord Howell: I shall speak briefly because the debate has spoken for itself. I shall say little about the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, except to say

6 Feb 1996 : Column 147

that the 300 organisations represented by the CCPR, which he mentioned, were certainly not consulted. The people mentioned in the letter to which he referred were involved in spectator sports. I am grateful to the Minister for his normal great courtesy. Indeed, I am grateful to all the Members of the Committee who have spoken.

The Minister, with his great charm, placed before the Committee what is really a most ludicrous proposition; namely, that he can consult everyone in a fortnight and return to this Chamber with the results of that consultation, not having previously undertaken such consultation. The Ministers's noble friend Lord Astor, who has spoken, was for a long period the Minister in charge of the preparation of the Bill. So why did he not consult everyone before we reached this stage? Why is he only now telling us what we should be doing?

The Minister undermined what he said about consultation over the next fortnight by recounting a long list of matters which he said had to be considered. It is totally impossible to consider all those matters in a fortnight. What about the 30 million viewers who cannot watch sport on their televisions? How are the Government going to consult them in a fortnight? What machinery exists to carry out that extraordinary consultation exercise in a fortnight when that has not been possible in the past 10 years since the legislation came on to the statute book?

I want to say a word about the faulty wording of the amendment to which the Minister drew our attention. If it is faulty, I am sorry to say that it is the fault of the Government because the amendment repeats exactly the wording of the 1990 Act. I was very careful to do that because I thought that I would beat that kind of argument. Whenever I took the field as a football referee, I took care to know what I was doing and who was playing before I went on to the field. That is what we had to do on this occasion.

We are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, for being so helpful and charming. However, my noble friend Lord Callaghan wins the day. The sap of the nation is rising. Not only is there anxiety about these sporting events, but there is also profound anxiety about the way monopoly television is going. That is why the nation is asking us to protect its interests and to protest. It is for that reason that we must press the amendment to a Division today.

5.1 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 223; Not-Contents, 106.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Abinger, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Airedale, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Attlee, E.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Balfour of Inchrye, L.
Bancroft, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Berkeley, L.
Birk, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Blyth, L.
Borrie, L.
Bridge of Harwich, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Caldecote, V.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chapple, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coventry, Bp.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Cudlipp, L.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughmore, E.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Downshire, M.
Dubs, L.
Dundonald, E.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Erroll, E.
Exmouth, V.
Ezra, L.
Faithfull, B.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fraser of Kilmorack, L.
Gage, V.
Gallacher, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenhill of Harrow, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hamwee, B.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hertford, M.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howell, L. [Teller.] Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Huntingdon, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inchcape, E.
Inchyra, L.
Iveagh, E.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilmarnock, L.
Kimball, L.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
McCarthy, L.
McConnell, L.
McGregor of Durris, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marlborough, D.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Merrivale, L.
Middleton, L.
Milne, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Milverton, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mottistone, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pender, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Ellesmere, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Rea, L.
Reading, M.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Robertson of Oakridge, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Runcie, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Sherfield, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stedman, B.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Templeman, L.
Terrington, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L. [Teller.] Thurlow, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Westmorland, E.
Whaddon, L.
Wharton, B.
White, B.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winston, L.
Wolfson, L.
Young of Dartington, L.


Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Arran, E.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Barber, L.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Bethell, L.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.] Coleraine, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Cumberlege, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Donegall, M.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Fairhaven, L.
Fanshawe of Richmond, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Goschen, V.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harvington, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Kimberley, E.
Kingsland, L.
Knollys, V.
Knutsford, V.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Manton, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Norfolk, D.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Orkney, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Renwick, L.
Sandford, L.
Seccombe, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Stockton, E.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.] Sudeley, L.
Swaythling, L.
Swinfen, L.
Swinton, E.
Tebbit, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vaux of Harrowden, L.
Vestey, L.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waterford, M.
Whitelaw, V.
Wyatt of Weeford, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

6 Feb 1996 : Column 150

5.15 p.m.

Lord Howell moved Amendment No. 2:

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