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Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, although permission is of course required for parking on private land, has there been an improvement since my Question of 20th June in suppressing the menace of pirate clampers operating on disused or unsupervised land? Does my noble friend recall that there has been some progress in Scotland, where a judge ruled in court that in Scotland the practice is theft and extortion, as victims' cars are held to ransom for very large sums?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, as I mentioned in my first Answer, we believe that the situation has much improved. Also, the situation is very different in Scotland. There is a different definition of theft in Scotland, for example. Wheel clamping on private land

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is effectively illegal, as the result of a ruling by the High Court of Judiciary in Edinburgh on 12th June in the case of Black and Another v. Carmichael that wheel clamping amounts to extortion and theft. However, as I said, the definition of theft is rather narrower than that in Scotland, in that Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968 requires that there must be an intention permanently to deprive. Generally, there is no such intention involved in wheel clamping.

Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, when the noble Baroness says that the situation is much improved, how does she know? There is no regulation in this area at all. Also, since her predecessor, Mr. Michael Jack, said that pirate clamping would be examined with all urgency, why have not the Government come forward with precise proposals?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, there has been a consultative exercise. We are convinced that it is not the problem it was. Many of the cowboy organisations have gone out of business and there are not nearly as many complaints as there were. We know too that there has been some clarification through the civil courts. For example, it was established in the case of Arthur and Arthur v. Anchor that it is legal for somebody owning private land to establish a wheel clamping system. In that case there were clear signs displayed and a reasonable charge levied for the recovery of the vehicle. That kind of case is therefore helpful. There have also been cases where the court has found in favour of the person clamped, which again goes to establish the law. We believe that that clarification is helpful. Material to that is the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady David; that is, that there should be clear signs and a reasonable charge levied for the recovery of the vehicles.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, can the Minister indicate how much longer the Government will require before they embark upon any substantive action, if it is required? When does she expect the report to be available?

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I cannot say when the report is to be made available. It is not being given quite the urgent attention it was because the situation is not thought to be as urgent as it was at first count. Also, wheel clamping is an effective solution to prevent people parking illegally on private land. We must think of hospitals, schools, residents' parking bays, small businesses--especially those where they are loading and unloading goods--and small hotels. It is an effective remedy against people parking on private land illegally.

Selar Farm: SSSIs

3.2 p.m.

Baroness Hilton of Eggardon asked Her Majesty's Government:

    In view of the proposed destruction of the habitat at Selar Farm in the Vale of Neath, what is their policy on sites of special scientific interest (SSSIs).

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Lord Lucas: My Lords, the Government remain committed to the conservation of our natural heritage. We believe that the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 continues to provide an effective and flexible framework which protects wildlife and habitats.

Baroness Hilton of Eggardon: My Lords, that Answer makes no reference to what has happened in this specific habitat where, without a public inquiry, permission has been given for open-cast mining. Are the Government satisfied that there has been an adequate environmental impact assessment in this case? It threatens particularly the marsh fritillary butterfly. We have already lost 100 species in this country this year and this is yet another example of neglect of the environment.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness's attitude is born of long periods in opposition and not having to deal with the practicalities of life where one must balance the needs of the local population, their employment and their industry, with that of the local nature. There will always be occasions when some SSSIs are damaged or destroyed because of the economic needs of the people living in the area. It is up to the Government and local authorities to balance those needs. We believe that they have done so properly in this case and that the conservation of the marsh fritillary butterfly is dealt with extensively in the biodiversity initiative documents we published. We are doing a great deal nationwide not only to preserve that butterfly, but to help it to increase and spread and make sure that it has a firm position in our natural fauna.

Baroness Nicol: My Lords, is the Minister aware that English Nature admits to damage to 104 sites last year? In Wales, of 899 sites, 20 per cent. suffered damage last year. That is an extremely large number. Scotland reports damage to 23 sites and reports that damage due to insufficient management is not recorded. What is special about damage due to mismanagement that results in it not being recorded? Surely damage to an SSSI, by any means, should be recorded and taken seriously by the Government. Is it government policy to accept all that without protest?

Lord Lucas: My Lords, the nature conservation bodies concerned take damage seriously. They try to pursue each case and make sure it is remedied. Their record in that respect is excellent.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, can my noble friend tell me when it was, in recent history, that the SSSI designation became the equivalent of a glass case?

Lord Lucas: My Lords, never.

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, is there any proposal under present consideration for denotification of this SSSI? How many new, permanent local jobs will be provided as a result of the open-cast development? How does that figure compare with the figure of lost jobs in the mining industry over the past 17 years which has seen the devastation of that once proud and productive workforce?

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Lord Lucas: My Lords, this has nothing whatever to do with the history of mining in Wales, though one can note that mining provided some wonderful wildlife sites on the old waste tips of the mines which have by now had time to develop wildlife which would otherwise be extremely rare in Wales. In relation to this development, I understand that in due course it will provide in excess of 100 jobs locally--and that, in an area where jobs are hard to come by, weighed heavily with the local council when it gave its support to the scheme. We feel that it got the decision right.

Lord Haskel: My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hilton speaks not so much from a few years' experience in opposition but after many years of distinguished service in public service.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, I do not doubt that.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, does my noble friend think it may be helpful if the Government considered introducing the Scottish system for SSSIs into England and Wales? That is a system whereby there is a separate advisory committee which advises on contentious issues. Since its introduction in 1991 it has proved to be a great success in Scotland.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, I shall certainly draw the attention of my colleagues in Wales to the Scottish SSSI system.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, notwithstanding the merits of this specific application, there is a need also to balance the requirements of the present generation against those of posterity? Will there not come a point, with the loss of the SSSIs referred to, where that balance is struck improperly in favour of the present generation? How do the Government propose to address that question?

Lord Lucas: My Lords, we are addressing it by an extensive and extremely well-funded series of initiatives to improve the environment as a whole. The emphasis surely must be on increasing the wildlife value and the natural habitat available to species in this country, which we are doing through a large number of farm-based schemes as well as other environmental efforts. Occasional damage will be caused to some parts of that environment, but the countryside is not a museum; it is a living and developing system. As the noble Lord is doubtless aware, 10,000 years ago Wales was just a glacier. All that has appeared has done so since then. Sites of special scientific interest can be created and appear naturally as well as disappear.


3.8 p.m.

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I should like to say a few words about today's debates. Other than the mover and the Minister replying, in both debates speakers will be limited to 10 minutes. I should remind your Lordships that if any noble Lord were to speak at greater length, he would be doing so at the expense of subsequent speakers in the debate. I remind your

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Lordships also that when the clock shows 10 minutes, the full 10 minutes have elapsed and the speaker is already trespassing on the time of others.

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