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Lord Monkswell: My Lords, I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Howie, in his amendment. Indeed, I would go slightly further. The noble Lord identified the distinction in the Bill between architects and surveyors on the one hand and consultants in building, engineering, etc., on the other hand. I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord that that is a false and wrong distinction to be drawn between two groups of honourable professionals, if I may put it like that.

Although I support this amendment, I hope that the noble Lord agrees that, in leaving out distinctions between particular professionals, other ancillary

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professionals who are essential to construction operations will be included; for example, catering staff. I refer to the people who provide bacon butties and cups of tea on construction sites. I believe that they should be included in the provisions of the Bill.

Noble Lords will know that the provision of adequate catering facilities on a construction site can be the making or breaking of the whole operation. Although I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Howie, agrees with me, the main point is that a false distinction should not be drawn between the two main professional groups involved in a construction contract. With great pleasure, I support the amendment and hope that the Government agree with it.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, does not like the way in which the Bill is drafted in dividing the world of construction professionals into sheep and goats, the sheep being lame-brained, lame-footed, daft, woolly animals who just produce a low grade of fibre, and the goats being sagacious, energetic animals that produce cashmere. I am sorry that he objects to being numbered among the goats under that definition.

I was very attracted, not by the amendment that he tabled, but by the amendment that he mentioned in passing. He referred to bringing forward the words "in relation to such operations" immediately after the mention of professionals. That is certainly a matter that we will consider.

In case there is any doubt, it may be worth pointing out that the wording of Clause 104 as it stands covers the professional work of all consultants in building, civil work and construction generally. Anyone who has a professional input to the operations listed in Clause 104(1), except in so far as they are modified by subsection (2), will enjoy fair contract provisions. That will include such people as lighting consultants, who I believe were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, at the last stage. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that this is a most important function of subsection (3).

Although the Government do not agree with removing this provision, as the noble Lord suggests, their attention has been drawn to the question whether paragraph (a) is required. Dare I admit that this may be another hangover from the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988? We will take the opportunity, having been prompted by the noble Lord, to look most carefully at this paragraph but, bearing in mind the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, about the presence of catering staff on site, perhaps that is where they come into the Bill. We will look at it carefully. If we believe that paragraph (a) is no longer necessary, we shall table an amendment to delete it. We shall consider the suggestion made in passing by the noble Lord about bringing forward the generality, so making this an all-inclusive reference to professionals. However, as far as concerns this particular amendment, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw it.

Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I did not fancy my amendment too much either. It seemed to go a bit

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far. It could perhaps have been justified. Noble Lords may have noticed that I made no attempt to justify it but spoke of something else. In these circumstances, that is a sound way of going about one's business. What may be termed my amendment that I mentioned in passing occurred to me only late in the day. I am pleased that the Minister thought that there was some merit in it. I was terrified when he started to remove paragraph (a). Once one begins to remove paragraphs from the Bill, who knows where it will end? He has been advised on several occasions to withdraw bits of it to which he has stuck. However, I am encouraged by what he has said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 106 [Provisions applicable only to agreements in writing]:

Lord Howie of Troon moved Amendment No. 14:

Page 60, line 14, after first ("in") insert ("adjudication or").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have nothing to say about this amendment, except that it has been discussed before. The Government looked at it with mild favour. I beg to move.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. We agreed to think further about it. Having done so, we have concluded that the noble Lord is right. It should be possible for an exchange of communications in adjudication proceedings to provide evidence of a written agreement. While we are clear on the intention of the amendment, the drafting will need to be considered very carefully. I hope that with that assurance the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I am greatly heartened by the notion that I am right. I shall go to the Library to see whether or not they can discover any other occasions on which I have been described as right in the past 18 years while I have been in this Chamber. I am little worried that he is unsure about the drafting. There are only two words to consider. At the moment, I do not see how these words can be drafted in any other way, but no doubt it is possible. I will not irritate the noble Lord by carrying on. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 138 [Home energy efficiency schemes]:

[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]

6 p.m.

Schedule 2 [Architects]:

Lord Howie of Troon moved Amendment No. 16:

Page 87, line 28, leave out ("seven") and insert ("eight").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I had rather hoped for some respite while Amendment No. 15 was discussed, but I have been refused that. Schedule 2 deals with the registration of architects. Whether they are sheep or goats I do not know, but I am very much on their side. I dealt with this at some length at Second Reading. I do not believe that everybody agreed with

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me. As the Bill stands, the body which looks after architects (ARCUK) is to have seven members elected by registered architects and eight others appointed by somebody or other. I propose to change it so that the elected members representing architects directly are in a majority of eight to seven instead of in a minority of seven to eight.

I am afraid that I have to wax philosophical for a moment or two. I remind the House of certain elements of a profession as opposed to any other form of economic activity. I begin by quoting the famous journalist on the Baltimore Sun, H.L. Mencken who published a number of books which he called Prejudices. In one of them he remarked:

    "It is, after all, a sound instinct which puts business below the professions, and burdens the businessman with a social inferiority that he can never quite shake off, even in America".
Mencken was giving the profession a moral stance or dimension which ordinary business did not have. I give another quotation to which I alluded at Second Reading. The quotation comes from the socialist philosopher R.H. Tawney. He was writing on this occasion as a philosopher rather than as a socialist. This is a matter that we have to think about carefully, because it is the essence of a profession as opposed to a public company or some other business organisation. He said:

    "A Profession may be defined most simply as a trade which is organised, incompletely, no doubt, but genuinely, for the performance of function. It is not simply a collection of individuals who get a living for themselves by the same kind of work. Nor is it merely a group which is organised exclusively for the economic protection of its members, though that is normally among its purposes. It is a body of men who carry on their work in accordance with rules designed to enforce certain standards both for the better protection of its members and for the better service of the public".

That is a definition which has not, perhaps, been carried out fully. I notice in passing that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, has come into the Chamber. It would be convenient if he were to take his place, because I may refer to him in a moment or two. I give him due warning, but very gently.

The essence of this issue is that the profession governs itself. I cannot for the moment think of any profession in which the governing body--the disciplinary body, because that is what is the case here with ARCUK--is dominated by a group of people who are not members of the profession itself. I do not believe that it is true of any other profession. If I am mistaken, I hope someone will point that out. If I am wrong, I shall try to ignore it. This is the crux of the matter. I have no doubt that this is the best deal that the RIBA could get out of the Government in order to get ARCUK reinstated, because, at one time, when the Warren Report was published, the Government wished to abolish ARCUK altogether.

The Earl of Caithness: Hear, hear!

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