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Lord Henderson of Brompton: I now find myself involved in party politics, much to my surprise. I wish to thank the right reverend Prelate particularly for describing the Church of England as an NGO. I am sure that it is and I shall cherish the expression. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for giving the Labour

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Party's view and the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, for her speech. As for the noble Lord, Lord Mackay, I merely wish to echo King Lear who said to his ungrateful daughters:

    "Oh reason not the need!".

I hope that the Committee will go into the "Not-Content" Lobby when the Question is put.

9.9 p.m.

On Question, Whether Clause 10 shall stand part of the Bill?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 112; Not-Contents, 98.

Division No. 3


Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byron, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dudley, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Goold, L.
Goschen, V.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hambro, L.
Hardwicke, E.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howe, E.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kenilworth, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Leigh, L.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Merrivale, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monk Bretton, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Portman, V.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Rodney, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stockton, E.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Swansea, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Westbury, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wynford, L.
Young of Graffham, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Chichester, Bp.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Exeter, Bp.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howell, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kennet, L.
Liverpool, Bp.
Longford, E.
McCarthy, L.
McGregor of Durris, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mayhew, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Meston, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L. [Teller.]
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Seear, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whaddon, L.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Winston, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Clause 10 agreed to accordingly.

9 May 1996 : Column 288

9.19 p.m.

[Amendment No. 127 not moved.]

Clause 11 [Other amendments and repeals]:

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 127A:

Page 7, line 40, after ("Act") insert ("and a related amendment of the Immigration Act 1988").

The noble Baroness said: As my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Mackay, indicated earlier, I shall deal with Amendment No. 127A which, although it would amend Clause 11, is closely related to Amendment No. 133ZA in Schedule 1.

9 May 1996 : Column 289

The first of this pair of amendments is a minor enabling amendment which is consequential to the amendment to the Immigration Act 1988 proposed in Amendment No. 133ZA. It will have no effect if Amendment No. 133ZA is rejected; and therefore it seems sensible to explain the intention behind that amendment.

It should be clear that one of the aims behind the non-asylum provisions contained in this Bill is to harmonise our approach towards different kinds of immigration offender. We intend to ensure that complementary and appropriate measures and powers are available to deal with all kinds of offender. The amendment continues that approach. Section 5(1) of the Immigration Act 1988 states that those who have breached the conditions attached to their leave will have only a restricted right of appeal against any decision to deport them. That right of appeal focuses solely on the question of whether there is a power in law to make a deportation order for the reason stated in the notice of decision.

Paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 1 to the Bill extends liability to deportation to those who obtain leave to remain by deception. This amendment would mean that those who have obtained leave to remain by deception would have only a restricted right of appeal against any decision to deport them, just like those who have breached the conditions attached to their leave.

That must be right. I cannot think of any compelling reason why those who obtain leave to remain by deception should be provided with wider rights of appeal than those who have infringed our immigration laws in other ways. I commend both amendments to the Committee.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The Minister and the Committee will know that we have very grave doubts about the decisions taken by this Committee in earlier consideration of the Bill about the phrase "obtaining leave by deception".

We have always said that there are circumstances in which perfectly genuine asylum seekers cannot possibly reach the position of seeking asylum in this country without some form of deception in order to get out of their own country and, on occasion, to get into this country. However, I do not feel that we should have that argument again. It is clear that the amendments are in line with the position taken by the Government on earlier clauses of the Bill. We do not wish to divide the Committee against them.

Earl Russell: Following the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, I too shall not repeat myself. I ask a question only of clarification.

The amendment speaks of deception. Is it speaking of attempting to obtain leave to remain or asylum by deception, or is it speaking of entering through the port as an ordinary entrant and then applying for asylum in

9 May 1996 : Column 290

the country? Is the second deception within the meaning of this amendment or not? It makes a big difference to the reaction of these Benches as of the other Benches.

Baroness Blatch: In answering the noble Earl, I shall also reply to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey. We have never said that there is not often very good reason why somebody should, by deception, leave their own country and even travel en route to this country. It may be the only way that such person can escape from his country of origin.

We are talking about deception at the port of entry into this country; that is to say, deceiving the immigration officials at the port of entry. Some people who come in by deception continue that deception in the country. Those are the people who enter by deception and who would be caught by these amendments.

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