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The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Meston, for pointing out that the Lord Chancellor, who has given the power to make these orders, may from time to time himself have a liability. I do my best to eliminate or minimise such liability, and I shall continue to do so. However, those of us who have potential interests in litigation are perfectly entitled to be consulted. From time to time, I would expect to consult, in addition to Her Majesty's Treasury and the Government Actuary's Department, the potential litigant--insurance companies--those who represent them and those who represent plaintiffs. Obviously one has to be sure that that is done in a proper way and that the matters which the Treasury raise are taken into account in a proper consultation. I should certainly have regard to what my noble and learned friend Lord Ackner said about it on the last occasion. In principle it is right. The issue has been raised and it is particularly important that it should be expressly dealt with in the final form of the Bill.
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.30 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 8.10 to 8.30 p.m.]
Housing Bill
House again in Committee on Schedule 3.
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 186:
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 187.
As a consequence of the proposed introduction of new social landlords in Part I of the Bill, we have been considering whether the Housing Corporation's general functions need to be amended. In particular, we have been looking at its statutory duty under Sections 75 and 87 of the Housing Associations Act 1985, to promote, and provide financial assistance for, the development of registered associations.
Since promotional duties were first given to the corporation in 1974, the housing association sector has grown and matured. The promotion of associations to private lenders was important during the introduction of private finance because the housing association sector was largely unknown to private lenders. Now, however, associations are able to promote themselves, either individually or collectively, or may seek assistance from financial intermediaries to promote housing associations to lenders.
Given these changes, we are proposing that the corporation's activities be refocused so that they encourage the efficient and effective use of housing resources through continued promotion of good practice based on findings from the research programme and value for money scrutinies and refocusing their promotion and advisory grant programme to improve service outcomes rather than support any particular provider group.
To achieve this, we propose modifying the corporation's powers so that they can facilitate the proper performance of the functions of social landlords. We also propose (in Amendment No. 187) that the corporation has powers to provide financial assistance to achieve this new function.
We appreciate that self-build societies are not comparable to registered social landlords. Because of their smaller size and limited scale of operations we propose that the corporation should continue to have a power to promote and assist in the development of such societies.
We also propose that one of the corporation's general functions should be to maintain a register of registered social landlords. This replaces the corporation's current responsibilities for maintaining a register of registered housing associations. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Elvel: The Committee will be grateful to the noble Lord for introducing these two amendments. I have one or two questions. In the phrase,
My second question relates to,
Lord Lucas: I am sorry, but just for the moment I do not see the second item to which the noble Lord refers.
Lord Williams of Elvel: I refer to Amendment No. 187:
Lord Lucas: I did not wish to leap up before the noble Lord was ready. I did so merely to admit that he
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 187:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 188:
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 273.
These amendments are stimulated by the introduction of registered social landlords. First, they amend Section 79(2) of the Housing Act 1988; secondly, they repeal Section 79(6) to Section 79(10) of that Act; and finally, they make minor amendments to Section 92 of that Act as a consequence of the other amendments.
Sections 79 to 92 of the 1988 Act deal with housing action trusts. They established the arrangements under which such trusts can dispose of land, including of course dwellings, to another landlord. Section 79(2) of the 1988 Act provides that disposal of houses subject to secure tenancies can be to a person approved by the corporation, or to a local housing authority or other local authority. Section 79(6) and 79(10) make provision in respect of the approval of such a person by the corporation.
The introduction of the new registration procedures for social landlords, and the approval that registration implies, means that it is no longer desirable or necessary to continue with a parallel approval mechanism for housing action trust disposals. No person who is not a registered social landlord would be an approved person for these purposes. But there is no point in requiring a registered social landlord to go through a quite separate approval process in order to become the recipient of housing action trust stock. It is sufficient to rely on its registration as a social landlord.
Amendment No. 188 therefore substitutes for the requirement that a transferee landlord which is not a local authority must be a person approved for the purpose by the corporation under Section 79 the requirement that it is a registered social landlord within the meaning of Part I of this Bill.
Amendment No. 273 repeals Section 79(6) to Section 79(10) of the 1988 Act, which govern the approval processes. It also makes a minor amendment to Section 92, to repeal that part of the definition of 'Corporation' relating to such approval. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Elvel: It all sounds very reasonable. However, the noble Lord read his brief rather fast. I shall have to study the matter in Hansard with my advisers and decide whether we wish to challenge the noble Lord's view on Report.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 57 [Definitions relating to charities]:
Page 136, line 38, at end insert--
(". In section 75(1) of the Housing Associations Act 1985 (general functions of the Corporation) for paragraphs (a) to (c) substitute--
"(a) to facilitate the proper performance of the functions of registered social landlords;
(b) to maintain a register of social landlords and to exercise supervision and control over such persons;
(c) to promote and assist the development of self-build societies (other than registered social landlords) and to facilitate the proper performance of the functions, and to publicise the aims and principles, of such societies;".").
"facilitate the proper performance of the functions",
what does "facilitate" mean in law? Does it mean that the corporation is simply standing by, or does it mean that it has an active role beyond the role that it is granted in the Bill as presently drafted?
"financial assistance to any person to facilitate".
Will the Minister explain what sort of person that might be?
"The Corporation may give financial assistance to any person to facilitate".
My question is: what sort of person might that be? If it is Lord Hanson--
Page 136, line 49, at end insert--
(". In section 87 of the Housing Associations Act 1985 (financial assistance for formation, management, &c. of housing associations), for subsection (1) substitute--
"(1) The Corporation may give financial assistance to any person to facilitate the proper performance of the functions of registered social landlords or co-operative housing associations.".").
Page 137, line 35, at end insert--
(". In section 79(2) of the Housing Act 1988 (permitted disposals of land by housing action trusts) for paragraph (a) and the word "or" at the end of the paragraph substitute--
"(a) to a registered social landlord (within the meaning of Part I of the Housing Act 1996), or".").
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