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Viscount Bledisloe moved Amendment No. 20:

Page 57, line 16, leave out from ("securing") to end of line 19 and insert ("that the amount of the fees charged is no more than would, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, be chargeable for similar proceedings in the county court.").

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I have to say that I find the Minister's reply to the previous amendment unacceptable. I urge upon him and the House that this has nothing to do with the desirability of moving these disputes to the tribunal. We all accept that that is a good idea. But the noble Lord then says "Well trust us, we will fix reasonable fees". What he does not address is the fact that Section 31B introduces, on the face of the Bill, an entirely new principle of full cost recovery for fees; and that is a principle which I would suggest to the House is wholly unacceptable.

He has given no reason why the transfer to what is meant to be a cost-effective tribunal should lead to higher fees which will be a new basis. He merely says "Well, in the tribunal you probably won't incur legal fees". I would point out to him that in a county court whether or not you employ a lawyer is optional; but these fees are compulsory however the matter is dealt with.

I am very grateful for all the support I have received. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, suggested that we should "keep a hold of nurse for fear of finding something worse". I point out to him that "nurse" is the present fee structure we have in the county courts. Therefore, I urge the House to cling to nurse and to vote with me on this amendment. I beg to move.

5.31 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 20) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 136; Not-Contents, 119.

Division No. 2


Ackner, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L. [Teller.]
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Barnett, L.
Bathurst, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V. [Teller.]
Blyth, L.
Borrie, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnock, L.
Carter, L.
Chapple, L.
Chorley, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Cornwallis, L.
Craigavon, V.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Derwent, L.
Desai, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Gainsborough, E.
Gallacher, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geraint, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenamara, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inchyra, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Lincoln, Bp.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lowry, L.
McCarthy, L.
McGregor of Durris, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Mayhew, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Molloy, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Palmer, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roskill, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Warsaw, B.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seear, B.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tonypandy, V.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Vinson, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Whaddon, L.
Wharton, B.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.


Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Berners, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brentford, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Cadman, L.
Caldecote, V.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Crickhowell, L.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donegall, M.
Downshire, M.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elibank, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gibson-Watt, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gisborough, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hacking, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Hertford, M.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Leigh, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Merrivale, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orkney, E.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Renwick, L.
Romney, E.
Saint Albans, D.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stockton, E.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wedgwood, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.
Wise, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wyatt of Weeford, L.
Wynford, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

17 Jul 1996 : Column 876

5.42 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 21 to 23 not moved.]

Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 24:

Page 58, line 44, at end insert--

("( ) In section 39 of that Act (index of defined expressions), at the appropriate place insert--
"arbitration agreement, arbitration proceedings and arbitral tribunalsection 38".")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 24 and 31 are both consequential. Noble Lords will recall that subsection (5) of Clause 83, which deals with the reasonableness of service charges, adds a definition of arbitration agreements to Section 38 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. Section 39 of that Act is an index of defined expressions, and Amendment No. 24 adds an entry to that index to reflect the addition to Section 38.

Amendment No. 31 is consequential to new section 3A of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, as inserted by Clause 93. Section 3A, which places a duty on a landlord to inform tenants of their possible right of first refusal, is tied to Section 3 of that Act: it can only apply when Section 3 applies. Notices under Section 3 are served when a landlord's interest is assigned, and requires the new landlord to inform the tenants of his name and address. Since Sections 3 and 3A only apply to residential property, Section 3A must therefore be

17 Jul 1996 : Column 877

added to the reference to Sections 1 to 3 in Section 32(1) of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, which says that these sections do not apply to business tenancies under Part II of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 86 [Appointment of manager: transfer of jurisdiction to leasehold valuation tribunal]:

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