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Lord Chalfont: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, will he elaborate upon the point he just made? He said that under the new dispensation the BBC World Service will still have its own managing director. As far as I can see from the table of organisation drawn up by the BBC, there is no managing director shown in the organisation for BBC News. Indeed, the editor of the World Service news programmes reports to Mr. Peter Bell, the head of news programmes, and the controller of BBC World News reports to Jenny Abramski of Continuous News Services. Where does the autonomous managing director fit in?

Lord Inglewood: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, asks a difficult question about proposals. It is difficult to answer emphatically. I am confident in what I have explained to your Lordships. I am sure that if the noble Lord makes express inquiries he will find that to be the case.

Lord Thomson of Monifieth: My Lords, we must bring this matter to a conclusion. I am immensely grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in support of my Motion. Indeed, a short debate of this kind on the eve of a Recess on a Thursday afternoon that attracts two distinguished former Governors of the BBC, two distinguished retired Prelates, a former Chairman of the Radio Authority and a present Chairman of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission is a debate to which I hope the Governors and Director-General of the BBC will pay close attention.

I am grateful for what the Minister said by way of giving us information on the questions that some of us asked. I can only say to him, and repeat, that we welcome the change being proposed in terms of maintaining a team at Bush House until April 1998, though--let us be clear--it is still going to be part of a much wider overall organisation, where the final responsibility of the Editor-in-Chief will lie outside Bush House. However, that change would not have taken place if it had not been for the outcry that there has been in both Houses of Parliament and from the public generally. That is ample justification for the belief that the failure of consultation has been monumental. If ever we needed the final evidence of that, it came in the information given to us by the Minister that next week the Secretary of State himself will summon the BBC to him for further discussion. That can only be the clearest possible evidence that the Government are dissatisfied with the degree of consultation that they have had, just as the rest of us are dissatisfied with the consultation that we experienced.

I know that it is a serious matter at this stage to move a Motion of this kind which, if your Lordships are willing to carry it, means that the matter will go back to the House of Commons. But, in view of the fact that the Secretary of State is calling the BBC to meet with him, it would be helpful for there to be an opportunity in

18 Jul 1996 : Column 1094

another place next week before the House rises, on the basis of that well-supported Early-Day Motion, to give the Foreign Secretary every possible backing when he conducts that meeting. I commend the Motion to the House.

The Deputy Speaker (Viscount Allenby of Meggido): My Lords, the Question is that this House do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 144. As many as are of that opinion will say "Content"; to the contrary, "Not-Content". The "Contents" have it.

Lord Inglewood: My Lords, perhaps we may have clarification, I am confused about exactly what we have been asked to vote on. Is it correct that the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, is asking us to disagree with the amendment to which I spoke earlier?

Lord Thomson of Monifieth: My Lords, yes.

Lord Inglewood: My Lords, the Government cannot accept that we disagree. We are not content.

The Deputy Speaker: Clear the Bar!

6.41 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said Motion (No. 144A), as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 144, shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 71; Not-Contents, 81.

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chapple, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Craigavon, V.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dainton, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Freyberg, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Habgood, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L. [Teller.]
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilmarnock, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Lichfield, Bp.
Longford, E.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
Mayhew, L.
Monkswell, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nicol, B.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roskill, L.
Runcie, L.
Russell, E.
Sandwich, E.
Seear, B.
Serota, B.
Sherfield, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Whaddon, L.
White, B.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Winston, L.


Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Aldenham, L.
Aldington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Annaly, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Berners, B.
Blatch, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elton, L.
Finsberg, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gage, V.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gisborough, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goschen, V.
Harlech, L.
Henley, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Kenilworth, L.
Layton, L.
Leigh, L.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mersey, V.
Mottistone, L.
Munster, E.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Prior, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Renton, L.
Seccombe, B.
Shannon, E.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swinfen, L.
Teviot, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Wise, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to accordingly.

18 Jul 1996 : Column 1095

On Question, Commons Amendment No. 144 agreed to.

6.50 p.m.



After Clause 112, insert the following new clause--

Taxation provisions with respect to transfer schemes

'. Schedule (Transfer schemes relating to the BBC transmission network: taxation provisions) (which makes provision about tax in connection with transfer schemes) shall have effect.'.

Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 145.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No.145--(Lord Inglewood.)

[Amendment No. 145A, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 145, not moved.]

18 Jul 1996 : Column 1096

On Question, Commons Amendment No. 145 agreed to.



After Clause 113, insert the following new clause--

Avoidance of certain terms relating to use for purpose of news reporting of visual images from broadcast or cable programme

'.--(1) Any provision in an agreement is void in so far as it purports to prohibit or restrict relevant dealing with a broadcast or cable programme in any circumstances where by virtue of section 30(2) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (fair dealing for the purpose of reporting current events) copyright in the broadcast or cable programme is not infringed.
(2) In subsection (1)--
(a) "relevant dealing", in relation to a broadcast or cable programme, means dealing by including visual images taken from it in another broadcast or cable programme, and
(b) "broadcast" and "cable programme" have the same meaning as in Part I of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.'.

Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 146.

This new clause effects the commitment which my honourable friend the Minister of State gave in standing committee in another place to bring forward an amendment to the Bill to safeguard news access to sporting and other events. The new clause provides that any provision in a contract is void in so far as it prevents the use of visual images from another programme for the purposes of news reporting in circumstances where the fair dealing provisions of the copyright Act 1988 would apply. Any decisions on what fair dealing constitutes would remain for the courts to take, based on the specific circumstances of the case in question. I commend the amendment.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 146--(Lord Inglewood.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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