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Lord Triesman: My Lords, as it is Independence Day, I certainly shall not do anything other than congratulate the United States on one of their great celebrations. There are areas of policy where we disagree with the United States, and we say so. Kyoto is an obvious example, as are the International Criminal Court and the death penalty. We will continue to work with the United States wherever we can and wherever we disagree—perhaps that is the most important place to work with people. It is best that we do so, and it is best that we build a trusting and close relationship on these issues, because, in the final analysis, the United States will be critical in
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Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, when the Secretary of State discusses issues with the American Administration, might the most practical course be to concentrate on energy security? Is it not the position that the Americans are, at last, beginning to take very seriously the need to reduce radically their oil consumption—both oil imports and oil production generally? Of course, that is a first achievable step, which, if successful, will vastly reduce carbon emissions in the long term and achieve two objectives in one: it will increase energy security and give our children and grandchildren better control over climate change.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I agree. There is conspicuous evidence that energy security has risen rapidly up the agenda of the United States. At state level and often at municipal level, leaders in the United States speak about the issue with increasing frequency. President Bush himself has described the reliance on oil as akin to an addiction. The reality is that the United States will have to look at ways in which their use of energy not only is secure and more efficient but accords with the need to decrease carbon emissions to the atmosphere.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, does the Minister accept that part of our problem with the United States is that substantial chunks of American opinion, including in Congress, are still in denial about climate change and pollution? I understand, for example, that half the world’s car emissions come from within the United States. Given that we have a special relationship with the United States, is it not important that Ministers, including our Prime Minister, appeal to American public opinion, rather than just consulting the US Administration?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, the public campaigns about climate change and carbon emissions have been prominent. That may be—I hope that it is—one of the reasons why so many states, including California and its governor, have taken such a robust position on the question. There may be many in all countries who believe that economic interests could be damaged by having stricter rules about carbon emissions, but the reality is that the way in which carbon emissions—particularly from the United States, but also from China, India and other countries—are poisoning the atmosphere will be a far greater problem than anyof the perceived economic problems that people sometimes plead in aid.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, is it not possible to explain to the United States that it is to their advantage to acknowledge the problem? The United States are, if nothing else, extremely technologically inventive. There are already buses in Washington and Sacramento which run on hydrogen. The Americans are on top of the
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Lord Triesman: My Lords, we have advocated that everyone should adopt and abide by the Kyoto agreement—it is an important international agreement—but I think that the noble Earl will find that there has been a direct appeal to the inventiveness, commercial opportunities and changes that may well boost parts of the United States economy if it proceeds in that way.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that at the recent Antarctic Treaty Consultative Meeting in Edinburgh the United States delegation refused to accept the words “climate change” in the final communiqué and insisted that the phrase should be “climate volatility”?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I was there for the beginning of that conference but unfortunately did not stay long enough to hear that extraordinary turn of phrase. I rather regret that, because I suspect that I would have left in better humour. Whatever words they choose, the United States must come to recognise that carbon emissions, at the current rate, are probably doing the most serious harm of almost any threat or challenge to our globe.
Prisoners: Women
3.07 pm
Baroness Stern asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What plans they have for the 350 women prisoners displaced as a result of the decision announced on 24 May to appropriate HM Prison Brockhill and HM Prison Bullwood Hall for male prisoners.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, Brockhill and Bullwood Hall had 282 women prisoners allocated to them on the day of the announcement. The Bullwood Hall prisoners have all been transferred to other women’s establishments. The transfers from Brockhill are still in progress. Transfer plans focused on individual assessment and on careful case management of those women identified as having complex needs and vulnerabilities. Closeness to home was a main consideration.
Baroness Stern: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. However, does she accept that in spite of what she has told us, the disruption to the treatment of these 282 women is likely to be considerable? Can she confirm that, in 2004, the Home Office dismantled its separate management structure for women prisoners? Does she agree that such short-sighted policy decisions as the appropriation of these prisons for men might be prevented if there was a senior person in the Home Office with operational responsibility for women prisoners?
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I reassure the noble Baroness that there has been minimal disruption of treatment for each of the women. A care plan was carefully worked out with each woman prisoner before the move and an assurance made that appropriate arrangements for continuing treatment were available. In relation to the separate management, I think I have said from this Dispatch Box before that the team is specially identified as dealing with the women’s estate. I assure the House that the women’s issues in our prisons are well and fully managed.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, how affected by the changes are the prisoners’ families?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, that is one of the issues that we considered. We looked at distance; we looked at need. The prisons to which the women have been returned are of a good order—the newer prisons have been specifically built—and those issues were very much taken on board.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I declare an interest, having carried out an inspection of the treatment of women in prison some years ago for several of the prison NGOs. Is the Minister aware that in 2004 the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, told the House that the case for a women’s justice board to deal with women offenders was very strong? Does she accept that the time has come to establish such a board to prevent women's special needs being subsumed by the overwhelming demands of the men’s prisons?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I do not accept that a women’s justice board is necessary at this time, but that is predicated on the changes that we have already made to the management of women in our prisons. Noble Lords will be aware from the debate that we had last week that we have specific programmes now in relation to the rehabilitation and settlement of women, and those issues are being energetically pursued. However, the issue is not closed.
Baroness Gale: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the report from the independent monitoring board of 2005 on Brockhill prison, which noted that the staff there had built up many years of expertise in reducing self-harm? Would she now expect the level of self-harm to rise as a result of the dispersal of the women prisoners from Brockhill?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I hope not, because the new regime that we have put in place appears successfully to have reduced the level of self-harm. All the prisons to which the women have been transferred have had those issues highlighted. It is a matter of acute concern which we have monitored with the greatest of care.
The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford: My Lords, Bullwood Hall is in my diocese, so I should be grateful to hear the Minister’s comments on the
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, of course I can understand what the right reverend Prelate says, but we hope very much that the community will not be undermined. I regret to say that there is a great deal of work to be done with offenders in the community and in our prisons. I hope that good work could be done with those willing volunteers, better to support offenders when they come out into the community and better to support the men who will be going to Bullwood Hall and their families.
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, one problem frequently raised in poor prisons is the standard of training of staff. What has happened to the staff who have been trained to work with women at Bullwood Hall and Brockhill, particularly the staff who looked after the young offenders at Bullwood Hall, whose activities were so praised by the chief inspector in the most recent report?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the noble Lord will know that there is a clustering process for these prisons, so that a number of officers who were in one prison will be transferred to another. I reassure noble Lords that the use and skill of those trained staff will not go to waste.
Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, the Minister has assured us of the steps that she will take to keep the families as close as possible to the prisoners. Can she assure us that the practice of churning, which is so unsettling, particularly to women prisoners, will be abandoned as soon as possible?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, it is always important to keep the level of churn to a minimum. Your Lordships will know that one of the prisons was used as a remand prison in the main, so people would be moved anyway. Some of the prisoners who were moved are longer-term prisoners who will now be settled in a way that is appropriate. I reassure the House that I ensured that each individual woman was spoken to and that her particular interests and needs and those of her family were considered before any move. I am assured that each and every person got the prison of their first choice, although of course there is a limit to how many one can choose from.
Lord Acton: My Lords, is my noble friend aware how delightful it is to hear about such meticulous trouble being taken with regard both to distance and
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I believe that that is so. The information that I have been given—I will confirm it—is that, although the distance may have increased, the speed with which one can travel to the new prison is greater. I am told that for many of the families the travelling has become easier because of the proximity to arterial roads and matters of that sort. I will write to my noble friend if what I have said is in any way inaccurate.
Gold Reserve
3.15 pm
Lord Swinfen asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What have been the receipts from gold reserve sales since 1997; and what would be the current market value of the gold reserve sold.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, 395 tonnes of gold were sold from the reserves between July 1999 and March 2002. The total proceeds were around$3.5 billion, equivalent to around £2.3 billion, using exchange rates at the time of the sales. On 3 July, the current market value of the gold sold was around$7.9 billion, equivalent to around £4.3 billion. The programme was part of a restructuring of the foreign currency and gold reserves aimed at achieving a better balanced portfolio. As a result of the programme, a one-off reduction in risk of approximately 30 per cent was achieved as measured by value at risk.
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. What securities were acquired with the proceeds of the gold sales, and what is their current market value in the same denominations as he gave in the original Answer?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the proceeds from the sales were invested in interest-bearing foreign currency assets in proportion to the then held reserves: 40 per cent dollars, 40 per cent euros and20 per cent yen. The current aggregate position of the reserves is included in the exchange equalisation accounts, which are published annually, and there is a monetary report on the reserves. It is not possible at this stage to unpick the particular transactions from that time, but the accounts show the aggregate position and do so on an annual basis.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the case for a more balanced foreign reserve portfolio is well made, regardless of the present price of gold? The plain fact is that an unremunerated, risky and volatile asset like gold is better reduced in the foreign reserve portfolio. Indeed, there is a case for reducing it even further. Does my noble friend accept that we made an agreement in the European Union—with 14 member states as well as
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Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I agree with the first part of what my noble friend said. This was about change and getting a more balanced portfolio. We achieved that 30 per cent reduction in risk as a result. It is wrong to evaluate the success of the programme in terms of the short-term movements in gold prices. The Government have no plans for further disposals of gold. We think that the arrangement in the portfolio is now about right.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, at a time of floating exchange rates, what is the purpose of the gold reserve at all?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my noble friend makes an interesting observation. The importance of gold generally in the reserves of this and other countries has lessened. So far as the UK is concerned, because we have a strong monetary and fiscal framework, we allow the market to determine what exchange rates are going to arise.
Lord Newby: My Lords, the Minister will be aware that at the time the Treasury said that the decision on gold sales did not involve taking a view on gold prices. It was vastly mistaken to sell off gold when the price was at a 20-year low. Does he accept that, had the Treasury held on to it until the market rose, it might now have been able to sell it to realise an additional£2 billion?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I believe that is the wrong analysis to make, as I have said earlier. Gold is extremely volatile in its price. It was about $100 above its current price a month ago, and$45 below its current price when the first draft Answer was produced for me to give to the noble Lord. That underlines the volatility of gold prices.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, would the Minister admit that with hindsight the timing of the sale of gold seems a little eccentric?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: No, my Lords, I would not. Again, you have to evaluate this in the long term. If the noble Lord is inviting me to say something about this Government’s stewardship of reserves in comparison to their predecessors, I am happy to do that. We do not need to go back very far. On16 September 1992, we sold £28 billion of reserves on a single day and £40 billion of reserves were sold in August and September of that year. Information released fairly recently under the Freedom of Information Act shows that the cost of that mismanagement of the economy was £3.3 billion.
Lord Dykes: My Lords, would it not be a good idea to increase the holdings of euros, anticipating future entry?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I think it was suggested at the time that this process was part of softening the approach to entry into the euro, and the
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Baroness Noakes: My Lords, the Government claim to have removed about 30 per cent of risk from their reserves portfolio, but the other side of reducing risk is reducing returns. Do they think that giving up more than £4 billion of gain in the value of their gold reserves represents a good risk/reward calculation?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, you have to make that evaluation in the long term. The process of dealing with risk does not always mean that you have a less risky portfolio with smaller returns. Part of the process of evaluation is to get the best of both worlds.
Extradition: UK and USA
3.22 pm
Lord Anderson of Swansea asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What representations they have received about modifications to the extradition treaty with the Government of the United States.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, we are unaware of representations about modifications to the treaty with the United States. There have been representations to amend the law that deals with extradition requests from the United States, and many of these have called for the United States to provide prima facie evidence with their extradition requests, as they used to do. However, we think that this is misconceived. The respective evidential requirements, having previously been unbalanced—placing a greater burden on the US than on the United Kingdom—have now been broadly evened up.
Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, does it not shriek with injustice and is it not grossly unfair that British citizens can be extradited to the US by the expedited process under the treaty, when the UK Government will have to provide prima facie evidence to the US? That is not, as my noble friend suggests, a rebalancing. Should we not have ensured at the time of negotiation that there was reciprocity in the coming into operation of the obligations? Would it not make sense and be just for us to give adequate notice to our US partners under the treaty that we intend to suspend its operation until such time as the US Senate ratifies it and puts the same obligations on their citizens as we have imposed on ours?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, as I have now said on a number of occasions, I understand the concern expressed by my noble friend, but the point is in fact flawed. The new arrangements enable us to have a comparable system to that in the United States. This is a rebalancing that makes the system fairer, as opposed to the unbalanced situation before, in which they had to provide prima facie evidence to us and we did not have to provide prima facie evidence to them.
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