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I commend CSOs for the work that they do. It is clear that they bring some reassurance to the public by their presence on the street and help provide local flexibility. Indeed, they can adopt a targeted approach to each area in which they work. I will discuss their important role with children in the next amendment.
Organisations such as the APA, however, are worried not only that, by increasing the CSOs’ automatic powers, particularly the power of detention, the Bill will erode the cost differential of training for full officers and CSOs, but also that the latter will spend less time on the streets and more time behind desks completing paperwork. ACPO has made similar noises, stating that,
- “the standardisation of powers for CSOs will bring some clarity to the public as to what CSOs are for. However, we need to guard against them being given powers that lead to abstraction from
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I remind your Lordships that the Home Affairs Select Committee commented that a reduction in the street presence of CSOs would be counterproductive. I hope that the Minister will explain to the Committee in full the powers that the Government wish to standardise and those that they do not, and to what degree standardisation is removing more discretion from chief constables.
Perhaps I may use this opportunity briefly to discuss truancy. I know that some organisations such as the Police Federation welcome the extension of the power to deal with truants to CSOs—indeed, they highlight the enormity of the problem and the time it consumes. But do these powers really answer the question? The Children's Society has questioned the efficacy of truancy sweeps as a way to tackle non-attendance at school, highlighting that the National Foundation for Educational Research concluded that, while sweeps had raised awareness of the issue, it was,
Despite a plethora of initiatives, national rates of unauthorised absence have not changed in 10 years and they increased in 2004-05 to more than 0.8 per cent of available school days. I hope that the Minister will inform us what the Government are doing to re-examine their strategy for tackling truancy and to shift the balance away from enforcement measures in favour of more strategic initiatives that respond to children’s and young people’s reasons for not attending school. They should focus more on some of the good early-intervention initiatives which address family difficulties such as those seen in Kent and recognise that this is one of the more likely roots of the problem. If we can address the causes of truancy, we can help cut the amount of time our officers and CSOs need to spend addressing it. They can then focus on other areas that require more skills. I beg to move.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: I rise in support of Amendment No. 82 and will also speak to Amendment No. 84, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Dholakia. Amendment No. 82 raises the argument about whether it is better to have standardised powers—which the Secretary of State would be able to impose anyway—or the power of a chief constable to allow local flexibility in determining what powers a CSO should have.
We know that the power to detain will be made standard, so that everyone will recognise that all CSOs, like police officers, have this power. I am opposed to their having this power, because I think it could cause immense problems, especially if an energetic and enthusiastic CSO gets it wrong. There is greater likelihood of that, because their training is minuscule and their experience far less than that of a fully fledged police officer. However, as the Government seem to think it is a good idea to allow power to creep to them, let us at least make sure that they all understand what is expected of them.
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I much prefer the stance taken by the APA, which would give chief constables discretion to decide whether their CSOs should be deployed in this manner. I hope chief constables would decide that in consultation with their police authorities. In 2002, when we discussed the powers of CSOs—how well I remember that—ACPO said that CSOs were,
In its view it was only for sworn police officers to deal with circumstances where,
- “there is a clear likelihood that a confrontation will arise ... where there is scope for exercise of a high degree of discretion—for example, where a situation is complex owing to a number of different parties involved ... where police action is likely to lead to a higher than normal risk of harm ... where there is a clear likelihood that police action will include any infringement of a person’s human rights ... where the incident is one which is likely to lead to significant further work”.
We can see that there are clear boundaries to the role of police CSOs. Local flexibility is the key to using them. I hope the Minister will agree that this amendment helps forces get the best out of their CSOs and use them as local policing style dictates. That can only be decided by each force and police authority.
Amendment No. 84 is a probing amendment intended to discover the nature and extent of the powers that the Secretary of State might want to introduce under the clause. It is rather strange that extremely detailed powers are included in Schedule 4 to the Police Reform Act 2002, explaining exactly what powers CSOs can exercise: issuing, in effect, fixed penalty notices; detaining, for up to 30 minutes, suspects who fail to give details; and using reasonable force to detain people in those circumstances. As I said, I am opposed to the power to detain anyway. It always assumes the use of force, however light, and the repercussions of that could be horrendous, even litigious. Apart from the fact that CSOs are not trained sufficiently—nor will they be—in the gentle art of detention, it is entirely wrong that they should be given the power to use force to enable them to undertake it. Apart from anything else, their own safety could be badly compromised; far better that this power be given to a fully trained police officer, who knows when and how to apply force appropriately.
5.45 pm
Baroness Henig: One of the reasons why I want to speak to this amendment is to pay tribute to the Home Office. Heaven knows that in recent weeks the Home Office has not had many friends in this House. I want to take this opportunity to point out that CSOs have been one of the big success stories of the last three years. The Home Office has to take some of the credit for that, both for securing the finance and for making sure that all police authorities came on board and realised their usefulness. That has to be said, and I wanted to begin by saying it.
In Lancashire we saw very early on the value of community support officers. We asked for a lot of them right at the start. I think we had the highest number outside London and Manchester. We used
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Lancashire was one of the forces to have a pilot scheme in relation to detention powers. CSOs operated with powers of detention in two divisions in Lancashire. In one division it worked very effectively; in the other division it did not. Interestingly, at the end of that experiment, Lancashire Constabulary felt that it did not want powers of detention for CSOs. I think that is a point worth making, because it tried all this. My own preference—although I would not push it too vigorously—would be for the chief constable to have discretion over these areas. I say that only because, as I have already argued, these community support officers are going to be an absolutely essential community resource in the next few years. We need to try, as far as we can, to get the relationship and powers right so that we can use them to maximum effect. While I would not strenuously oppose what is suggested, I would like it noted that I think maximum flexibility and discretion may well be the most effective way forward here.
Lord Dholakia: That is precisely the reason why my noble friend said that this is very much a probing amendment. We really want to see exactly which powers will be vested in community support officers. This was discussed very substantially during previous legislation. We certainly support everything the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has said.
It might be useful to cast our minds back to look at the extent of the conflict police officers find themselves involved in when detaining people. Many of us are used to seeing this on CCTV and many programmes on television. If those powers are to be used by community support officers it is vital that they are properly trained for that purpose, rather than be expected to perform a task that needs years of police training. If we do not tread carefully, the sympathy that exists at the moment in relation to community support officers will gradually disappear if there is a confrontation between them and the individual being arrested. It might be very helpful if, at this stage, the Minister could indicate two things. First, will community support officers receive adequate training—meaning as good as that given to police officers? Secondly, will they also be subject to the discipline of the Independent Police Complaints Commission?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I thank my noble friend Lady Henig for the compliment she paid the Home Office. It is a rare moment and I will savour it for a long time. I say with all humility that on this occasion it is perhaps justified only because of what has been said by other Members of the Committee, not all of whom were as enthusiastic when CSOs were
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It is right that people are jealous of that success, because PCSOs have added colour, flavour and intimacy to the way in which the community can respond, which we value. I wish to reassure the Committee that our seeking to standardise some of the powers under which CSOs will operate is only to bring clarity. It is not to bring rigidity or to try to undermine the efficacy of the way in which they work. It would therefore be right to make it plain, in response to the question of the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, that the list of the powers that the Government propose to confer are set out as standard in annexe B of the Explanatory Notes. None of the proposed powers is inappropriate to CSOs. They are already in legislation, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, indicated, so we should not see PCSOs abstracted from the community as was feared. I understand what the noble Viscount says about their visibility, accessibility and importance. An approach that took them away from that front-line role would be extremely regrettable.
I am not sure whether I misheard, but I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, referred to powers of arrest. I remind the Committee that CSOs do not have a power to arrest, although they have a power to detain. I thought that he did not intend that. The power to detain is worded as a requirement to wait with the community support officer for up to 30 minutes. The use of force is therefore not inevitable. It has been piloted successfully. The power to use reasonable force is separate and will not be a standard power. I particularly endorse the views expressed by my noble friend Lady Henig that the way in which it can be delivered has been found successful in many situations, and on other occasions not so. The power to use reasonable force is a separate power that needs to be judiciously used.
I turn to the truancy sweeps that the noble Viscount raised. They are only one element of the strategy that we intend to use: there are issues on how we respond to truancy in terms of educational welfare, the assessments made at school, parenting orders, the attempts to engage the parents in relation to it, and the now greater connection between the wraparound services and the agencies working together in partnership to identify need and interventions which will encourage children to remain in school. Special programmes for children are being developed. Some of the groups teach them in a slightly different way, which is more interesting and likely to retain their presence at school, one hopes. All those matters have to be undertaken. This is but one extra step, which cannot ever be a panacea but can be an additional support.
Children who are truanting are disproportionately likely to be engaged in anti-social behaviour and disproportionately often at risk. The training for PCSOs
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The Home Secretary will then have to consider carefully the comments made in response to that consultation. We have been candid about the whole process since last summer. The proposed set of standard powers for community support officers has been formulated following a formal public consultation in which the Association of Chief Police Officers was specifically invited to comment. Our intentions, which will be subject to debate in this House, are set out in annexe B of the Explanatory Notes. The Bill recognises that it is desirable for some powers to be standard and for some to remain available at the discretion of individual chief officers. In deciding which powers should be standardised, the Secretary of State will take into account the relevant factors and views. We believe that the duty to consult achieves the ends sought by Amendment No. 82, and I hope for that reason the noble Baroness, Lady Harris—at whom I am looking, but my remarks are also intended for the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman—will be content not to press the amendment, as it is not necessary. As I said, we understand why it was tabled.
Amendment No. 84, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, who has spoken to it, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, singles out one particular power that will for ever be excluded from the standard set of powers. That is at odds with the approach taken in Clause 5. All powers remain at the discretion of chief officers of police, save those designated as standard powers. We see no reason to single out the power to detain for special attention. If, as Parliament accepted in 2002, CSOs should be capable of exercising a power of detention, that power should be one that could be included in a standard suite of powers.
We have already indicated that we will omit the power to use reasonable force to detain an individual from proposed standard lists of powers for community support officers. That power should remain in the discretion of chief officers of police, but detention is a key enforcement power that can contribute to the effectiveness of community support officers. The clause as it stands provides flexibility while ensuring that any order is subject to full consultation and parliamentary scrutiny through the draft affirmative procedure, which provides sufficient
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Viscount Bridgeman: We on this side are a generous lot and would like to associate ourselves with the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, about the CSOs; I shall endeavour to do so. Certainly they have been a great success in many ways. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for her support for the amendment. I am glad that the probing amendment was spoken to because that enabled the Minister to give an explanation. I am grateful for her remarks about truancy. We shall read her remarks about the balance between local discretion and standardisation with care, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6 pm
Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 83:
“( ) Training for Community Support Officers must include training on the common core of skills and knowledge for the children's workforce developed by the Department for Education and Skills.”
The noble Viscount said: This probing amendment in the names of my noble friend Lady Anelay and myself follows on nicely from the debate on the potential new powers that CSOs may be given under this clause. Amendment No. 83 inserts a new subsection after subsection (6) to make it certain that CSOs receive adequate and appropriate training in working with children and young people.
The Standing Committee for Youth Justice—SCYJ—and APPG on Children have expressed the view that the standard set of powers for CSOs introduced by Clause 5 must be accompanied by statutory requirements for training in order for these powers to be implemented appropriately. I am sure that all your Lordships believe this is essential to ensure the safety and well-being of children and young people who come into contact with CSOs.
A recent Home Office evaluation of CSOs identified that they spend a lot of their time working with children and young people, dealing in particular with anti-social behaviour and “youth nuisance” on a regular basis. Indeed, as I highlighted in the previous debate, some areas designate their CSOs solely to carry out this role. The survey reported that dealing with youth disorder/nuisance was one of the tasks they most frequently carried out, with over half saying they did it daily and 81 per cent at least weekly.
The report also identifies the important role that CSOs can play in getting to know and engaging local children and young people, introducing diversionary activities in the community and ensuring that the voices of under-18s are included in the discussions and debates about anti-social behaviour in the community. It is clear that CSOs in their daily work are highly likely to be working with children and young people. However, there are concerns among many children's groups that CSOs may not possess the appropriate skills and knowledge to communicate
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Section 11 of the Children Act 2004 places a duty on key persons and bodies to make arrangements to ensure that in discharging their functions, they have regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. The police are one of the key bodies covered by this duty, and the guidance on Section 11 states that in order to meet the requirements of this duty, among other things, the police should ensure senior management commitment and accountability; have clear statements of responsibility; ensure that police officers and police staff at all levels are aware of their statutory requirements to protect and safeguard the welfare of children; and ensure that appropriate training, processes and procedures are in place to enable all staff to be best able to support the aims and objectives of the Children Act 2004. While it may be implicit in the guidance that the Section 11 duty falls on “police and police staff”, I hope that the Minister can provide a clear statement and assurance that CSOs are included under the Section 11 safeguarding duty.
The national evaluation report highlighted that many CSOs themselves have expressed concerns about the training they had received and many felt that it inadequately prepared them for their role, and they wanted more practically based teaching methods. Only 38 per cent of CSOs felt that their initial training had prepared them well enough to do their job and 59 per cent of CSOs felt they had encountered situations they did not feel properly trained to deal with. So there have been numerous research studies that have identified difficulties in the relationship between the police and young people. Research by the Home Office with Docking, and Bradley in 1998, identified that young people feel intimidated, disrespected and stereotyped by the police and that the police lacked sympathy and understanding towards them. Research by the Children's Society identified that police are often lacking in the skills needed to communicate effectively with black young people in particular.
In interviews with young people about their experiences of stop and search, many expressed a lack of trust in policing generally and specifically they painted a picture of conflict and confrontation in their daily dealings. Some also reported being frightened by such encounters. The consequence of this is that many young people often lack confidence in the police and some report that they have largely withdrawn from any voluntary involvement with them.
With the proposed increasing role and functions of CSOs, there is a danger that the same problems will arise, worsening the overall relationship between young people and those responsible for promoting community safety. In order to avoid this situation and to ensure the successful implementation of this clause, resources will need to be made available to ensure that CSOs receive adequate and appropriate training about how to work effectively, safely and appropriately with children and young people. To revert to the remarks made in
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