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5.15 pm
Baroness David: I apologise for missing some of the Minister’s remarks, but I want to address the same subject as the last two speakers. My views on this issue are very well known in the House. For more than a decade the UK has been roundly criticised by United Nations and European human rights bodies for having legislation which allows parents and some others to justify assaults on children as reasonable punishment. The legislation which the Government now propose to impose on Northern Ireland through this order allows common assault to be justified as reasonable punishment. As the independent expert leading the current UN Secretary-General’s study on violence against children said at a meeting in Parliament last December:
Our children deserve nothing less than equal protection under the law.The UK expects other states to take their human rights obligations seriously and to respect the recommendations of human rights monitoring bodies. The four children’s commissioners, including Northern Ireland’s, have strongly criticised this legislation. The Council of Europe’s Human Rights Commissioner, Thomas Hammarberg, recently issued a paper calling for the prohibition of all corporal punishment across Europe. In it he states:
- “Children have
had to wait until last to be given equal legal protection from
deliberate assaults—a protection the rest of us take for
granted. It is extraordinary that children, whose developmental state
and small size is acknowledged to make them particularly vulnerable to
physical and psychological injury, should be singled out for less
protection from assaults on their fragile bodies, minds and
dignity”.
This Government have done much good for children, but they really should grasp the nettle and stop pursuing unsatisfactory and dangerous compromises like that expressed in this order and in Section 58 of the Children Act 2004. I hope that the Minister can give us an assurance that he will try to do something to ensure that this is not put into law in Northern Ireland.
Lord
Trimble: The noble Baronesses who have just
spoken have criticised the substance of these provisions by asking
whether they reflect their views of the European Convention and other
matters. They point out that this has stemmed from a compromise reached
in this House in 2004. The point I want to make, however, is somewhat
different. This is an area where the law for Northern Ireland is the
same as that for England and Wales, and in a large number of areas the
law is the same. It is enormously to be desired that in these areas
where for largely historical reasons there is a notional devolution of
legislative authority to a body that currently does not exist, the law
of Northern Ireland should be kept in step with the law in England and
Wales, where these matters are similar. Indeed, it is probably
desirable that, so far as possible, any differences between the law in
England
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The law in England was changed in 2004. Now, two years later, the measure is being introduced in Northern Ireland by Order in Council, which means using the very abbreviated parliamentary process that we are currently engaged in compared with normal legislation by passing a Bill. What really should have happened was for the 2004 Act to be extended to Northern Ireland; then we would not have been in a situation where a two-year interval has arisen. If the noble Baronesses are not satisfied with the provision here, they must be even more dissatisfied with the fact that for two years the law has remained unchanged and not brought into line. That is my basic point. We are dealing with a form of legislation that is bad in so many ways, but particularly because it is so slow and inefficient. I have made this point many times over the years, but I just wanted to underline again to the Minister and to those who are listening and taking notes that there is no need for this delay. It should not have arisen. The law in Northern Ireland should have been changed in 2004, not in 2006.
Baroness Blood: Before the Minister responds, I should like to take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. When the legislation for England and Wales came on to the Floor of the House, I wanted to see if we could get Northern Ireland included in the Bill but was told that that was not possible. I have pursued every avenue in the two years since then. This does not go far enough, which we all know. My point was that I wanted parity for the children in Northern Ireland. That was the sole reason for making that point. I have had conversations about this with a number of organisations in Northern Ireland. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I raised the issue with a number of people who are now complaining. I understand that they were not formally approached, and I feared physical punishment getting out of the meeting.
Lord Rooker: I appreciate the points that have been made. I think I can answer most of them, but I shall certainly not be able to answer some of them satisfactorily. It is distressing that, by and large, in the current circumstances—direct rule with an Assembly that is suspended and that may not exist—Northern Ireland will always be behind the legislative progress and reform in the rest of the UK unless we actually start to legislate for Northern Ireland when we legislate for England and Wales—in the main, we do not do Scottish legislation any more. There is an incredible reluctance to do that for Northern Ireland, simply because of its history, but Northern Ireland should have its own devolved Administration.
By the
way—and I do not say this to excuse the delay—the two
Section 58s are not word perfect because criminal law in Northern
Ireland is slightly different from that in England and Wales. I may be
wrong, but I think Section 58 was imported on a free vote in the House.
I do not blame the noble Baroness. Indeed, I would do the same myself;
I would use every
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Baroness Walmsley: I accept that Parliament voted for this compromise—the Minister accepts that it is a compromise—but will the Government stop claiming that it now makes us compliant with the European Convention on the Rights of the Child? It is for the Council of Europe and the committee that polices the convention, not for the Government, to decide whether the Government comply. The Government may think that they comply, but they cannot really claim that they do until that claim is endorsed by those organisations.
Lord Rooker: We shall make the claim until someone disclaims it. That is our view.
I shall also address the substance of the point made by the noble Baroness. I am not knocking the other points, but she made a point about the Northern Ireland commissioner and a number of voluntary organisations that have complained about the handling of the matter under Section 75. Section 75 is incredibly important for Northern Ireland. Great Britain has nothing like it. In some ways, that is to Great Britain’s disadvantage, although I do not want to spark another debate about Section 75. I am informed that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on this issue because of its nature and because the two letters of complaint were submitted only late yesterday afternoon and must be dealt with in due course.
Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 imposes a duty to promote equality of opportunity rather than a direction for equal treatment. In our view, the Section 75 duty was appropriately discharged during the policy process, and it was concluded that a provision corresponding to Section 58 was compliant with Section 75. As I say, there is a time lag here, and that is to be regretted. Decisions on this issue were tossed around in the past 12 months that I have been in Northern Ireland. The idea was to try to prepare a policy that was fit for purpose in Northern Ireland. The departments in Northern Ireland are watching what is happening in GB. Section 58 was not in the Bill when it was originally put before Parliament; it was introduced as it made its way through Parliament. The departments in Northern Ireland were aware of the amendment but they wanted to take time to assess the situation and to get it right for Northern Ireland to the best of their ability. It has taken time, and it will take more time unless there is a devolved government. There will be a real dilemma if we do not have any prospect of a devolved government that Northern Ireland will always be behind. I fully accept that the level of scrutiny is totally inadequate. It is not fully democratic. Nevertheless, no one in Northern Ireland is prepared to do it at the moment: it is left to Westminster to do it.
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Section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which is what we are talking about in the main, was considered by the Joint Committee on Human Rights and was judged to be complaint with the European Convention on Human Rights. The shift in the law has been generally welcomed at the European Parliament level, although progress on positive parenting will be monitored. We do not want parents smacking kids. Children should be entitled not to grow up under a threat of physical violence; I fully accept that. We are satisfied that at present this is sufficient to bring us into line with the European Convention on Human Rights.
I will try to address the questions asked by my noble friend Lady Blood, who was kind enough to give my office some warning of them, and we have prepared a response which, as she asked, will be placed in Hansard. First, she asked about the implementation of the order leading to a strategic approach and a clear vision, and she asked me to outline timetables. I recognise that Article 2 of the order effects an important amendment to the law in Northern Ireland and that the amendment will be of direct relevance to people in their private, and possibly professional, capacity. I agree that the implementation of that article requires careful thought and a systematic approach.
With that in mind, we have sought approval for the establishment of an implementation group, which will be tasked with managing the roll-out of the new arrangements and securing the links across government departments, the voluntary and community sector and the statutory sector. If approved, that group will comprise high-ranking officials from the Northern Ireland Office, the Department of Health, the Department of Education, the Office of Law Reform and representatives from key children and parents groups such as Barnardo’s, the NSPCC and the Parents’ Advice Centre. We would wish the group to commence its work as soon as possible so we are well placed with the new arrangements coming into effect. We would also wish the group to provide regular progress updates to the ministerial committee on children and young people, which I had the privilege to chair for the year I was there.
The noble Baroness asked me whether a component of the strategy would be a regional public awareness-raising campaign for professionals, parents and carers. She asked me what that might look like. The finer details of the required awareness campaign will be a matter for the implementation group if it so approves them. However, we expect that it would want to use a variety of communication channels to highlight the new law, if we make it, to get the positive parenting message across. We are considering a relaunch of the Safe Parenting Handbook, which would be one way of reaching parents. In the past, circulars have been an effective way of highlighting legislative change for professionals and decision-makers, and we envisage that they would be used again in this instance.
Another way of
reaching professionals is to place an article in a professional
magazine. For example, on previous occasions the Law Society of
Northern Ireland has kindly accepted articles on particular
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5.30 pm
The noble Baroness has asked me to give an assurance that the legislation will not result in unmerited prosecutions of parents, and that it is designed to support parents in finding positive methods for disciplining children. Concerns about unmerited prosecutions emerged in England and Wales during the debates on Section 58. However, the provision was commenced in January 2005, some 18 months ago now, and there is no suggestion that parents in England and Wales have been unfairly penalised. Ultimately the decision to prosecute is a balanced process that takes account of the relevant factors, including the public interest and the circumstances of the alleged offence. We have no reason to believe that the experience in Northern Ireland will be any different.
On the issue of positive parenting, we acknowledge that legal reform is just one side of the coin and that if we are to make real and practical differences to the lives of parents and children, we have to offer sources of support and guidance. I am happy to say that a lot of good work has already been done on the ground through projects such as Sure Start. However, it is important to ensure that sources of help and assistance are appropriately signposted, which is another point that the implementation group wants to consider. The noble Baroness also pointed out that health visitors and midwives play an important role in primary prevention and that they should be provided with advice on positive parenting. She sought further assurances on that point. Without doubt, health and social care professionals have a pivotal role to play in this. We recognise that if they are to discharge their functions efficiently and effectively, they must have clear guidance and sufficient information on important issues such as positive parenting. As I have already mentioned, in the past circulars have been used and we envisage that they will be used again to put these points across to professionals.
The Department of
Education has an important role to play in taking the matter forward,
and the noble Baroness has asked for assurances on that point. It would
be a critical mistake to assume that the positive parenting message
should be targeted only at parents and fail to engage with children and
young people. Quite apart from their own direct interest in the issue,
we must recognise that many have caring responsibilities for younger
siblings and may be babysitting for friends and relatives to raise
extra cash, or simply doing it as a favour. That being so, they need to
be made aware of the positive parenting message, and one way of putting
it across is through their local schools. We accept, therefore, that
the
4 July 2006 : Column 31
I turn to the final three questions put to me by the noble Baroness. She asked for an assurance about the development of a strategy that will involve all relevant government departments to be taken forward. I hope it is apparent from my previous answers that we want to do that. Northern Ireland now has an inter-ministerial group with a minister for children; there is a willingness to have our doors banged on. The experience and expertise of the children’s voluntary sector has long been recognised and we hope that we can harness that expertise and work in partnership with organisations such as Barnardo’s and the NSPCC.
As an aside, during my year in Northern Ireland, on only two occasions could I have discussions with representatives of all the parties—in some cases five different parties—around the table where they talked not only to me but to each other. The first occasion was on councillors’ allowances and the other was on children. That was the measure of the issue. Indeed, I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, that the representatives of six different political parties regularly came together to discuss children’s issues because they were sincerely united in that area. In my opinion, that was a fairly unusual event that demonstrated the importance placed by the political parties on this issue.
Finally, the noble Baroness asked me whether I could ensure that the police service keep statistical information relating to physical punishment cases to allow benchmarking and comparisons to be made. We will be working closely with agencies in the criminal justice system with a view to devising appropriate data retrieval methods. Obviously the methods adopted will depend on the systems in operation, but we are aware that we need to be able to track the operation of this legislation. Let me make it absolutely clear that whatever the arguments, professional or otherwise, saying that it cannot or should not be done is not on and is quite unacceptable. We have to be able to track the operation of this legislation.
It is customary for new legislative provisions to be monitored with a view to identifying and rectifying any operational difficulties. Schedule 2 to this order will be subject to the monitoring process that covers normal legislation. Section 58 will operate in England. It has an 18-month head start. Therefore, it will probably not be productive to say that we join in. Northern Ireland will be watching the monitoring of Section 58 in England. In due course, Schedule 2 will be monitored and reviewed to see whether it is operating as Parliament intended it to.
We will go back and check the points that were raised to see whether I have missed anything. If so, naturally I will write to noble Lords.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
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