| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Amendments Nos. 8 and
10, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, would require local
authorities to exercise their education functions with
5 July 2006 : Column 266
We want there to be no doubt—this meets the points raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Williams—that the Bill and the Every Child Matters agenda go hand in hand and that the one reinforces the other. Noble Lords who spent a lot longer than I did attending to the passage of the Children Act 2004 will know that this establishes local authorities’ duties to promote the well-being of children in their area in so far as they relate to the five Every Child Matters outcomes, which include education, training and recreation. We want the wording of the two sets of provisions to be as compatible as possible.
Once we have established this important principle, it goes without saying that we cannot just add a reference to,
without also defining more clearly who this is intended to cover, as the existing duties in Section 13A of the 1996 Act are couched in terms of “persons” rather than “children”. Because of that, the definition of “children” in subsection (2) of new Section 13A sets out precisely what that word means, and I fear that it will include, like children of a similar age, the noble Baroness’s children.I hope that I have made a reasonable attempt to meet the points raised in this important and interesting debate.
The Earl of Listowel: I thank the Minister for that helpful and detailed answer. I omitted to ask him whether he will inform the Committee—or perhaps he will write following this debate—of the Government’s response to The Costs of Inclusion report that I mentioned. If he would not mind writing to me, I should find it helpful. The report calls for an independent review of inclusive practice, which it says is now essential. If there is a government response to it, I should be grateful if he would send it to me.
Lord
Adonis: I am not breaching any confidences by
saying that tomorrow the Select Committee on Education and Skills in
another place will publish its report on special educational needs, and
it will cover many of these issues. The Government will, of course, be
required to respond fully to that report and they intend to do so. Our
response to the report will also be a response to the same issues
raised in the
5 July 2006 : Column 267
Lord Judd: I thank my noble friend for the very considerate response to my amendment, and I am encouraged that he will go away and consider it seriously. I shall not go over all the arguments again, but perhaps I may make two points as succinctly as possible. First, he returned to the judgment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, but that was about how the obligations under the convention were fulfilled. The point that I make in the amendment, which I consider to be important, is that we are not saying that we are doing this because we have obligations under some convention; the convention is there because this is something that we believe is right. If in our society we believe that it is right to recognise the fundamental right of the child—full stop—to education, then it seems to me that it would be good and would strengthen the Bill to say that right at the outset, and then everything else follows on from that. It is about how we fulfil that right. It is not the case that we have to introduce arguments, if challenged, about whether we will have obligations under conventions here and conventions there. We are saying that this, at the heart of our education policy, is the right that we recognise, and everything follows from that.
5.15 pm
Lord Northbourne: I do not think that the noble Lord mentioned whether he is prepared to give the Committee a sneak preview of the regulations on fair access. I detected a fair amount of enthusiasm in the Committee for the idea of having one if it were possible, so that we could understand more clearly what the Government propose.
Lord Rix: I thank the Minister for seeing me and members of the Special Education Consortium yesterday afternoon in time for a refreshing cup of tea, which was much needed in yesterday's heat. I am sure that he will understand when I say that I should like to read his response in tomorrow's Hansard, together with my colleagues from the SEC, before we decide whether to take any action on Report.
In the mean time, I shall not press my Amendments Nos. 6 and 9.
Lord Lucas: I do not know whether the noble Lord will be able to answer the questions that I raise on the meanings of “educational” and “potential” and how they will be measured. If the noble Lord wishes, he can write to me, or I could raise the matter again on clause stand part.
The reason I am interested
in “educational” is that the Government have said that
they want to raise the level of funding to that of independent schools.
There is a different definition of education in independent schools
from that in state schools. It is a much broader acceptance of what
education means in the generality of independent schools. Indeed,
within
5 July 2006 : Column 268
In measuring potential, we are getting into very sticky water with the introduction of contextual value added. In a way, it says that a kid of Afro-Caribbean background has less potential because of that thana child of Caucasian background. I feel deeply uncomfortable about that, and it is now being incorporated in the Ofsted definition of whether a school is fulfilling the educational potential of its children.
I very much want to know where the Government stand on that and how potential will be assessed. I do not expect the Minister to go into absolute, crystal-clear detail, but I want to know what the Government think. What is their opinion; what is their ambition on these things? How do they see this changing and developing the educational system over the next few years?
Lord Adonis: That is a very wide issue, and I am happy to write to the noble Lord, which may be the best approach rather than giving him a potted version now.
Baroness Buscombe: I thank the Minister for his response to my amendment and the others in the group.
I reiterate that the purpose of our AmendmentNo. 1 was to strengthen the commitment to high standards of education and the promotion of the potential of every child attending our schools. Again, I stress that I was talking about educational potential, not necessarily academic attainment, which can mean different things for different children. We would support what the Government are trying to achieve in a holistic way.
Perhaps it was the reference to primary duties that led the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, to pull me up on this. Perhaps I should not have used the words “primary duties”, but I did so to try to add weight to the emphasis on the need for high standards and fulfilment of educational potential. The important thing is to try to shift the duty on schools to achieve that potential. Let us remember that, under this Bill and certainly beginning with the White Paper, the local education authority is supposed to be the commissioner not the provider. A solid duty is being placed on local education authorities to promote high standards and the fulfilment of potential, and to ensure that it is the school which carries out that duty and produces high standards and achieves fulfilment of potential among its pupils. That is the purpose behind our amendment.
I am
grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for articulating rather
better than I the need for clarity in the phrase “fair
access”. It concerns us, not least because the proposed new
Section 13A(1)(c) mentioned in Clause 1 covers the issue of fair
access, in requiring all children to have the chance to succeed and
their educational potential fulfilled.
5 July 2006 : Column 269
For now, however, I thank the Minister. I accept his explanation of why the word “person” is not sensible, in that he wants to ensure that there is clear consistency with other Acts and the holistic approach to education, so we must stick with “children”. I will have a tough time explaining that to my children tonight. On that basis, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 [Duties in relation to high standards and the fulfilment of potential]:
Lord Dearing moved Amendment No. 3:
- “(1) A local authority which is
both a local education authority and a children's services authority
shall ensure that their functions as a children's services authority
relating to improving the well-being of children in the authority's
area are exercised with a view to ensuring that the authority support
their duty under section 13A of EA 1996 (duty to promote high standards
in primary and secondary education).
- (2) A children's services authority
shall ensure that their functions relating to the provision of
children's services must be exercised by the authority with a view
to-
The noble Lord said: I shall speak to the amendment put down by the noble Lord, Lord Best, who unfortunately cannot come today, myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.
The purpose of our amendment is formally to underline that the Every Child Matters agenda, as set out in the Children Act 2004, is directly relevant to the educational attainment of every child, and that the educational purposes of the Bill will not be fully achieved unless the agenda is part of its provisions. The point was argued by speakers from all three parties in the other place and taken to a vote in Committee. The amendment has the support of the Every Child, Every School coalition, which, as the Minister knows, is widely drawn and includes local authorities which would be given responsibility to give effect to our addition to the clause.
I imagine that the
Minister will tell us that this is unnecessary, because there is
already sufficient legislative provision. I offer two thoughts on that.
First, there is a plethora of legislation making so many demands on so
many busy people that, as a necessity, they must prioritise and decide
what to do. An example which may be familiar to the Minister is
5 July 2006 : Column 270
I have not counted the number of times the Bill refers to it being supplemented and complemented by guidance and regulation, but there are 480 pages of draft regulations and guidance. When that hits people outside, what do they do? They must prioritise. My concern is that the Every Child Matters part of what is necessary for the educational success of a child will get overlaid.
Secondly, the children or young people who will suffer most from any such sidelining are those who need the help most, who need their well-being and their education to be seen as a whole. I am thinking of children from fractured and disorganised homes where the parents are heavily burdened—perhaps both of them are at work—so there is stress and anxiety and the child’s needs are great.
When this matter was discussed in another place, the Minister, Jacqui Smith, recalled the words of the former Secretary of State for Education and Skills, who told the Education and Skills Committee that the White Paper that heralded the Bill was,
She went on to say:- “We have
made it clear that we are happy for the measure to be applied when
judging the success of the reform programme as a whole and the White
Paper and the Bill in particular”.—[Official
Report, Commons Standing Committee E, 28/3/06;col.
52.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): In view of the groupings, I must point out to the Committee that if Amendment No. 4 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 5 to 9.
Baroness Walmsley: I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and the noble Lord, Lord Best, who is not in his place, on Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 and to speak to Amendments Nos. 5 and 22, which are tabled in my name.
The Bill is about
education, but when putting duties on local authorities and schools in
order to improve standards, we must continually emphasise that that
must always be done in the best interests of the child and to promote
his well-being. That is what we say in Amendments Nos. 5 and 22. It
could be that to cram a child for exams might improve his grades, but
at the same time, it could make him ill. That would not be in his best
interests and that is not what we want schools to do. Subsection (1) of
the new clause inserted by Amendment No. 3 will ensure that the Bill,
and the role of the local authority outlined within it, work towards
the improvement of the five
5 July 2006 : Column 271
Local authorities have already embraced the provisions in the Children Act 2004 that created integrated children’s services and gave them a duty to improve outcomes for all children. More than 130 local authorities now have directors of children’s services and local authorities are in the process of developing children’s trusts to deliver better and more integrated services for children. Integrated services are also being reflected in the inspection regime through joint area reviews and the creation of the single inspectorate in the Bill. If that approach is to be embedded within all children’s services, the Bill needs to support the Children Act explicitly and reflect the joined-up approach being taken on the ground at local level.
When amendments related to Every Child Matters were moved in Committee in another place, the Government stated that the Children Act 2004 is sufficient to ensure that schools co-operate in the delivery of Every Child Matters. Practitioners tell me otherwise. They tell me that unless they have a proper, explicit duty, they just pay lip service. We on these Benches tried very hard to get schools included in the duty to promote well-being, but the Government resisted our efforts. Practitioners tell me that they regret that we did not succeed in our efforts. However, Amendments Nos. 5 and 22 reflect the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which enjoins all governments at all times to give priority to the best interests of the child. I believe it is a good thing to have the duties explicitly set out in Clauses 1 and 3.
In another place the Government told us that the provisions are not necessary as Section 10 of the 2004 Act already places a duty on local authorities that is far more powerful than the one our amendment proposes. The Bill focuses on schools and not just on other children’s services, so it really should be explicit. If the Government have an abhorrence of duplication, perhaps they should remove about half of the Bill, which re-enacts measures, powers and duties which schools and local authorities have.
5.30 pm
When the matter was being debated in the Commons, my honourable friend Sarah Teather, Member of Parliament for Brent East, said that schools are about preparing well rounded young people for life. From a personal point of view, she very much regretted that she had missed out on some of the things that schools can give to children when she was concentrating on the academic things to achieve her very high grades. She pointed out that those who run schools should have at the front of their minds the well rounding of young people. Therefore, I believe that we should have these words right at the front of our Bill.
Baroness
Massey of Darwen: I rise briefly to support the
amendment. In doing so, I reflect on the words of the Minister at the
beginning, with which I
5 July 2006 : Column 272
I support the amendment partly because it ties in with a later amendment about the duties of governing bodies in relation to Every Child Matters. Anything that supports Every Child Matters being enshrined constantly in the Bill is very important.
The amendment is more dynamic than the current wording. I am glad—I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams—that the word “well-being” is there. We really will not get higher standards in our schools unless we focus on wider issues of welfare and well-being. Not all children are in school—some are truants, some are young carers and some are excluded. We ignore those children at our peril.
Last week the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children, which I chair, had presentations from three directors of children’s services from various parts of the country. They carry out their duties in very different ways—different configurations of services and different staffing structures—but have at the core the well-being of the child. All those working with children are now expected to work towards the five outcomes, and this work is inspected by the joint area reviews and Ofsted.
I go back to the issue of well-being. Well-being must be in the functions of any school and any local authority. This amendment seems to tie in these responsibilities successfully. Therefore, I support the noble Lord, Lord Dearing.
The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham: We on these Benches agree that the well-being of children is and must be paramount. That is already enshrined in law in Section 351 of the Education Act 1996. It describes the purposes of education as being the,
We strongly support that.We regret that the five Every Child Matters outcomes, which the Government have rightly promoted since the Children Act 2004, do not fully spell out that primary purpose of education and the care of children. I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and the noble Baroness, Lady Massey.
None of this is inconsistent with attention to high standards in literacy and numeracy in education. Indeed, the most disadvantaged children are those best served by that attention. Surely, education is the best and, indeed many would argue, the only real means of overcoming disadvantage. That is why the Churches have been and remain committed to promoting and providing education and why we are so pleased that the vast majority of the new Church of England secondary schools, like the academies we are promoting, serve the most disadvantaged in our society.
Baroness
Buscombe: As the right reverend Prelate has just
said, we entirely agree that the well-being of
5 July 2006 : Column 273
In essence, the principles and objectives behind the amendments are already covered by the Children Act 2004, and the Bill must be read in tandem with that. We fear that the inclusion of a well-being duty in the Bill could upset the balance of the Children Act, which places a duty on each children's services authority to promote the well-being of children in the area to help them to achieve their optimum outcome in education, training and recreation.
The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, in particular, would place a target duty on local authorities. In the light of our first amendment, we do not feel minded to support that because we believe that it is the duty of schools to carry out that role. It also reduces the educational slant on local authorities' duties. We fear that it could skew Clause 1 in favour of welfare rather than educational attainment. That is the wrong set of priorities for the Bill. The Bill should focus on educational attainment.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I was not going to speak at this juncture, but my noble friend has allowed me to speak before him. I disagree fundamentally with the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, with whom I usually agree.
It seems extraordinary to me that in the Bill, the only place where we spell out the five outcomes of Every Child Matters is under the provisions about recreation on page 6. Those are the outcomes that will underpin a child’s emotional, physical and social well-being, which are the things that enable a child to learn. The Minister has heard me say this on other occasions during discussion of other legislation, but unless we look after the emotional well-being of our children—this case has been put far more eloquently by my noble friend Lord Dearing and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, than I ever could—they will never make the best use of their education.
I have spent most of my working life having what is probably a very skewed view of young people at the disadvantaged end of life and whose emotionaland physical well-being is often marred. As a consequence, they are in the schools at the bottom of the pile. Unless well-being is high on the agenda and we can take welfare to heart, education will simply not be attained by those children who the Government so strongly aim to bring up to the same high standards that we want for all our children.
Baroness Buscombe: Perhaps I may respond tothe noble Baroness, Lady Howarth—the joy of Committee is that we can speak as often as we like, so let us make the most of it. I hope that I have explained clearly that there is an existing duty in the Children Act, which is powerful. Our concern is that reference to that duty in the Bill could weaken that, leading the courts to question why we felt it necessary to clarify that in certain cases in the Bill. I understand where the noble Baroness is coming from.
5 July 2006 : Column 274
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: In one sentence, I believe that it would strengthen it.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: Again, very briefly, I support the amendment. We have gone over this point many times, but it was felt above all during consideration of the Children Act 2004 that the educational side was perhaps not as fully involved in the rest of the services that were going to be working together, and I wish to draw attention to the fundamental point about the well-being of children.
I am particularly concerned about special needs children, and the second part of the amendment, on promoting high educational standards, is particularly important for them. They must have the right attention and the right resources to see that they get that attention in schools. As we know from a number of reports that we have read, particularly from the National Union of Teachers, there is great concern about that. I am sorry that I, too, must disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe. Nevertheless, on this occasion I really do think that the amendment needs to be incorporated into the Bill.
Lord Dearing: May I offer an explanation of my misdemeanour to the noble Baroness? My strong feeling, which is based on thinking about my home city, is so often that social deprivation and problems at home are a great obstacle to a child’s success in education. You cannot have what you want without considering this. It is a fundamental building block. That is what I am trying to get across. This is fundamental to the educational objective.
Baroness Warnock: I support what my noble friends Lord Dearing and Lady Howarth have said, and remind your Lordships how things have come on since the 1970s when the committee on special educational needs was set up. The members of that committee were expressly forbidden from asking whether social deprivation was connected in any way with special educational needs. We shall prove how much we have advanced since then if we can have right at the front of the Bill the need to consider the well-being and welfare of the child alongside educational considerations. I believe that there is no one who does not understand that a child is not in a position to learn if their welfare and emotional needs are not considered. The two things go closely hand in hand. I very much support any amendment that would spell this out and make it absolutely clear.
Lord Adonis: I now realise that I am in the customary position of Ministers speaking from this Dispatch Box of agreeing with all the substantive points about policy that have been made in the debate. Indeed, I very rarely disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, who speaks such great common sense in these matters. I should say that the Government share entirely the objectives that he set out in his speech, but point out that the law does not need changing to achieve those objectives; it achieves them already.
5 July 2006 : Column 275
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, suggests that the Bill duplicates existing legislation in many places. I stress, because this is a crucial point about the Children Act 2004, that, where the Bill duplicates existing provisions, it repeals them, and brings them together in one place for ease of reference or consolidation. I do not believe—this is crucial to the discussion—that the noble Baroness or any other noble Lord would wish to repeal Section 10 of the Children Act 2004 and incorporate it into an education Bill. I know exactly what the reaction would be if I put that proposition to your Lordships. It would be duplication. I have discussions with our lawyers all the time about what such duplication means. It means that, if these matters become matters of contention, you are asking the courts to choose between two different sets of duties laid out in different Acts, the wording of which is very similar but not precisely the same because they are in different contexts in the two Acts. So that is, in substance, my answer, but it is not to do with the objectives set out by the noble Lord, which we entirely share.
5.45 pm
Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, seek to tease out the relationship between the duties placed on a local authority acting in two different but inextricably linked capacities: first, in its capacity as a local education authority carrying out functions in relation to the provision of education; and, secondly, in its capacity as a children's services authority, carrying out its functions in relation to improving the well-being of children.
The objective of these amendments is to ensure that there can be no confusion between the duties placed on local authorities in this Bill and the Every Child Matters agenda. Educational standards and well-being go hand in hand and this Bill has been consciously framed—as I said in response to a previous amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe—to reinforce the Children Act 2004 in respect of the Every Child Matters agenda, which is central to all that we seek to achieve for young people.
For local
authorities to fulfil their Every Child Matters and educational
duties effectively, they need to be as joined-up as possible in their
various complementary activities. That is why we have brought together
education and children’s social services departments into
children’s services departments, as noted by the noble Baroness,
Lady Walmsley, each with a single director of children’s
services. That is a major development on the past situation where there
were separate directors of the two services. It is also why we want to
see one set of complementary statutory duties to apply to local
authorities. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, would support
that objective. It is why Clause 153 enables us to eliminate entirely
the terms “local education authority” and
“children’s services authority”. They would be
replaced throughout legislation with the single term “local
authority”,
5 July 2006 : Column 276
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |