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House of Lords
Thursday, 6 July 2006.
The House met at eleven of the clock: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chester.
Charities Bill
Lord Best asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What was the reason for the delay in the resumption of the passage of the Charities Bill through Parliament.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, it was always the Government's intention to complete the Charities Bill in this Session of Parliament. As with any other Bill, the Charities Bill had to wait for parliamentary time in another place. I am pleased to say that Second Reading was completed on 26 June and that the Bill is currently going through Committee, which must be completed by 13 July.
Lord Best: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response, and for the good news that the Bill is now wending its way through another place. However, would he care to comment on why it took seven and a half months, after the lengthy pre-legislative scrutiny committee had done its work and after we had spent a good deal of time and effort in this House bringing the Bill almost to the point of conclusion before the general election in May 2005 and then spent further time deliberating it until November last year? Does he recognise that that delay in implementing measures that are highly valued by charities is more than inconvenient? The Bill contains measures to restructure the Charity Commission, to introduce an appeals tribunal and to facilitate mergers, and a good deal more that we badly need enacted.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am very appreciative of what the noble Lord has to say on the subject, because he and I clearly share a view about the importance and value of the Bill. Business matters in another place are entirely for business managers in another place. The House of Lords did an extremely good job. We spent more than 60 hours on the Bill over two parliamentary Sessions and I like to think that it was probably one of the most perfected Bills ever to have left your Lordships’ House.
Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Best: can we have the Government’s assurance that the Bill in its later stages will be given urgent consideration in the next Session?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, of course the Bill is being given urgent consideration. I understand that it is going through its third day of Committee today, and that Members in another place are giving
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Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Best, I was on the Joint Committee that considered the draft Bill and was heavily involved in the 11 months in which we dealt with it before and after the election. Does the Minister agree that the Bill had singularly high public importance? The whole of the voluntary sector has been deeply engaged with it, and I commend the Government on the way in which they have brought the sector into it. Does he therefore agree that there is a severe dislocation in the way in which the public can follow the legislative process when there are these major gaps between bits of the legislation, and that it has an impact ultimately on the quality of the legislation?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I very much regret the delay. I apologise from the government Benches for any uncertainty that it may have caused, but I, like the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, also pay tribute to the charities for their patience and their constructive engagement with government in bringing this legislation forward. The noble Lord played a major part in that, and I thank him for his work, as I do the noble Lord, Lord Best, because between them they made very valuable contributions to improving that legislation.
Lord McNally: My Lords, given this extraordinary delay at the other end, is it not even more strange that we get from the Government ideas of putting a straitjacket of timing on business in the Lords? Could I invite the Minister to ask the right reverend Prelate to preach a sermon on beams and motes to the other place?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, a straitjacket might be the noble Lord’s way of looking at those things, but I believe in flexibility. As for taking a long time to get anywhere, I suppose the Liberal Democrats are quite experienced at that.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, where does flexibility come in when the proposal is to restrict discussion of legislation in this House to 60 days and then we have an example, as the noble Lord has just said, of what can happen in another place?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I had not anticipated that we would get into this debate, but it strikes me that having timetabled business has benefits both for the Government and for opposition parties in ensuring timely legislation—a naive view, perhaps.
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Iraq: Treatment of Women
11.10 am
Baroness D'Souza asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What steps they are taking to help prevent the oppression, abuse and murder of women in Iraq by religious factions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Triesman): My Lords, we are helping the Iraqi police and security forces to develop the capacity and ability to protect all members of Iraqi society. We are also raising the awareness of the role of women in society in Iraq through dialogue with the Iraqi Government and the promotion of Iraqi civil society groups. We welcome the recent Iraqi constitution, which includes protection of women’s rights. The constitution must lead to appropriate legislation.
Baroness D'Souza: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. It seems that women are suffering disproportionately from violence in Iraq: they fear to go to the market without male protection, there is strong pressure for women—even Christian women—to wear veils and domestic violence appears to remain unaddressed. It would appear that prisons are the only place for women to go, but recent reports of repeated abuse and rape by guards from the Al Kazima prison in Baghdad, where 200 women are incarcerated, does not give cause for comfort. Furthermore, the recent appointment of women MPs by the Government in Iraq is not necessarily representative of the minorities in that country. Does the Minister agree that it would be of great humanitarian value to set up women’s refuges? Can he also say whether any of the considerable amount of money allocated for reconstruction in Iraq has been spent on political training for women MPs so that they can be more effective in their campaigns against violence?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, first, because there is no statistical track through the Saddam period, it is very hard to disentangle whether things are very much worse, although I am inclined to the view that that is probably the case. We think that the idea of refuges is a strong one and I know that a delegation on this recently went to Wales to look at experience there. Secondly, we are working very hard, including with women MPs, to develop institutionally the rights of women. We want to make sure that there is capacity building in the human rights areas affecting women and the development of civil society, which is often a great bastion of protection and development for women, and also capacity building within civil society organisations. A good deal of the investment and effort is going into the three prongs of that approach.
Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it was a Minister of the present Government who closed the women’s refuge centre in Iraq? That has caused great distress and many problems for Iraqi
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Lord Triesman: My Lords, I hope that I have addressed the point about the desirability of refuges. However, the bulk of our work involves trying, in an environment that is deeply hostile and in many respects very violent for all members of society, to ensure that the human rights ministry on the basis of the new constitution does the development and training. That would include provision for women in government; ensuring that women have access to lawyers and the professions; inviting them from all sections of society to engage in training in the work of civil society; promoting the role of women in many other respects; and, of course, training police forces to deal with some of those abuses, which are unquestionably taking place.
Baroness Northover: My Lords, has the Minister noted the case currently in the US courts of an American soldier accused of raping and killing an Iraqi girl and then of killing members of her family? Her uncle said that the incident had been kept secret lest it reflected badly on the family. Surely women’s rights ought to be universally respected whether by US soldiers or by the Iraqis. What are the Government doing, while they are still in Iraq, to encourage the Iraqi Government to bring forward legislation that will protect women, particularly from honour killings?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, we have always made it clear that the constitution, from the point at which it was adopted, has to be translated into real and practical legislation with which people can work. We certainly are doing what we can in training different elements of society to achieve that result. On the point about criminal abuses, I believe that the United States has expressed the view—as I do on behalf of this Government—that if there are criminal abuses, those who commit them should be brought to justice.
Baroness Uddin: My Lords, perhaps I may take this opportunity to add my salutations to the Lord Speaker who is in her place. This is a great step in the advancement of women in our country.
Does my noble friend accept that we need to praise the women of Iraq, who have sustained their voices throughout a very difficult time? Through the steps we have taken in Iraq, does he think that we have caused the advancement of Iraqi women to slip backwards? Does he accept that they need all the assistance we can give them and that perhaps we have not been able to do as much as we should?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, the idea that people have gone backwards from the regime under Saddam Hussein, which took no account of the rights of women at all, is not one I subscribe to. Of course we must work hard to make sure that there is development and progress. Personally, I think that the fact that a quarter of the members of the new governing council of Iraq are
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Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the brutal oppression of women in Iraq reached its zenith under Saddam Hussein, although it is true that it has continued in some horrific ways? There are targeted assassinations and even reports of beheadings and other horrors, as well as the terrible victimisation of women for not wearing headscarves and so forth. While one understands that there is a limit to what outside governments, including HMG, can do and that these matters must be gripped in Baghdad by the Government there, can we at least ensure that under the new constitution, which we advised on and supported, women really are protected and their rights really are enhanced so that we avoid the danger of institutionalising any kind of brutality or discrimination against women, as could be the case if we are not careful?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I emphasise that there is absolutely no complacency about the position of women in Iraq, although judged by the record of Saddam Hussein—the suppression of the Marsh Arabs, for example, wiped out vast numbers of people, both men and women—it is a problem that has been in that country for some time. We must take concrete steps. We have 170 police trainers in Iraq providing professional skills and training for the police, including training in the areas of greatest concern covered by the Question. The training modules include a programme of training specifically about women. We are involved in a training facility within the Ministry of Human Rights, training trainers and providing training curricula, particularly on the importance of women’s issues. In the final analysis, of course we have to rely on the Government and the people of Iraq to determine these outcomes in their society. However, we are doing what we can to help the process of construction at the beginning. In the end, they will decide whether it is successful.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I hope I misheard, but did the Minister say that in tackling the problems of violence against women in Iraq they have gone to Wales? Could he elaborate on that?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, my only elaboration is to encourage everyone to go to Wales. I can think of few things more enjoyable or educative. But there is a good deal of experience in dealing with violence against women and the provision of hostels and legal protection. It is that that a number of women from the Iraqi Parliament have studied.
Baroness Fritchie: My Lords, is there more that we could be doing here with groups such as the International Arab Women’s Federation and its president, Haifa Fahoum Al Kaylani, because they may well have effective links in Iraq?
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Lord Triesman: My Lords, the representatives of a number of NGOs, especially those looking after the interests of women, have been visiting London. They have repeatedly met my right honourable friend Ann Clwyd—I think they did so earlier this week—and we will continue to encourage all such tangible links.
Obesity
11.22 am
Viscount Falkland asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What steps they are taking to increase public awareness of the cost to the nation of preventable obesity.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner): My Lords, we have made available 2 million copies of Why Weight Matters, a leaflet for the general public, and 1 million copies of Your Weight, Your Health, a self-help booklet to help people control their own weight. In May we provided practical information to help health professionals identify and treat overweight and obese patients. Guidance on weighing and measuring primary school children has been published. There will be a national obesity awareness campaign in January 2007.
Viscount Falkland: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. We are all aware of the efforts the Government are making but one wonders whether the message is getting across, set against the £7 billion which obesity and overweight are now costing the country. As he and other noble Lords will know, in order to combat them individuals need to make enduring changes in their behaviour. Does the Minister know of any way in which the Government can get this message across, particularly the exercise component as well as the business of sensible eating?
Lord Warner: My Lords, we have worked hard on this and there are a number of initiatives on physical exercise, including in schools. That is one of the key components of the follow-up to our Choosing Health White Paper. I remind the House and the noble Viscount what the House of Commons Health Select Committee said on this issue:
“The causes of obesity are diverse, complex and, in the main, underpinned by what are now entrenched societal norms”.
Solutions need to be long-term and sustainable. We are dealing with a complicated issue, which we will need to work on, with other people, over a long time.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, will my noble friend say a little more about children and obesity and the unparalleled and worrying rise of type 2 diabetes in children?
Lord Warner: My Lords, there is, and has been for some time, a worrying rise in obesity among children. The obesity rates in two to 10 year-olds in England have risen over the past 10 to 12 years from less than 10 per cent to more than 14 per cent. We know that this is going on across most of the developed world and is leading to problems in type 2 diabetes, as my noble friend said. We need to carry on working hard to try to get this issue under better control.
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Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, does the Minister think that 2 million copies of Why Weight Matters are sufficient when, as the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, said, the problem is costing the economy £7 billion? Surely the number of copies should be nearer to 20 million.
Lord Warner: My Lords, we are working on this matter and will produce more copies when the need arises. We are making the information available through GPs and other outlets. As the need arises, we will increase the capacity.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, several years ago, I entered by mistake the wrong Committee Room and found myself sitting at the top table of the all-party group on Obesity. Having entered the room and been given some strange looks, I felt it would be rude to leave. At the end of the meeting, we were all given pedometers and told that if we walked 10,000 steps per day, we would not be obese. May I inform the Minister that I have religiously worn my pedometer since then and that, so far, it has worked?
Lord Warner: My Lords, the noble Lord is a tribute to his fateful encounter with the all-party group. He will be pleased to know that we are using pedometers in schools, and I hope that they will have the same beneficial effect there as they clearly have had on him.
Lord Addington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the major problems for the Government in dealing with this matter is that three major departments are required to produce effective action? Have the Government given any thought to putting one of the departments in control to set targets for the other two, so that we do not waste so many resources and have a coherent strategy?
Lord Warner: My Lords, the Department of Health is the lead department on this, but it is one of the strengths of the Government that we have three highly performing departments of state working together in partnership to take this agenda forward.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I fully understand that the Minister shares my concern about the rising levels of childhood obesity. Does he share also my concern about the marketing of junk food to children? I agree that the Government have made great strides forward in the promotion of a better diet for children, particularly in schools, and I am sure that there is much more that we can do. What steps can the Government take to promote further the proposals in Choosing Health, particularly at local PCT level, where I am sure that many directors of public health are struggling to make them a priority?
Lord Warner: My Lords, I reassure my noble friend that the Government remain committed to reviewing the success of measures undertaken on the balance of food and drink advertising and promotion to children in 2007. If these measures fail to produce change in the nature and balance of food promotion, we intend
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