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Amendment No. 105 deals with a separate point. It seeks to extend the community call for action to cover county councils as well as district councils in two-tier areas. I am sensitive to the noble Viscount’s point. I have operated in a two-tier system and I have operated in a unitary system. I concluded from my experience—the noble Viscount will not be surprised to hear me say this—that a single-tier system in local government is probably the best. However, I recognise the invaluable role that each part plays within a two-tier system. We are keen to avoid confusion and overlap, which was one of my issues with the two-tier structure.
A formal role for county councillors, and certainly for county overview and scrutiny committees in the community call for action, could create considerable overlap. A situation could arise where a member of the public raises an issue at both district and county level and resources are needlessly dedicated to deal with it at both levels. That would not be a wise use of time or resource.
Opening the community call for action to county level has all the potential for confusion and could create significant additional burdens on county scrutiny committee processes. I hope that noble Lords will agree that such confusion and overlap is best avoided. If the community call for action issue is indicative of a more strategic problem that is not restricted to the district crime and disorder reduction partnership, the guidance that will accompany this provision will be clear that that will need to be fed into the county scrutiny committee, which would then pick it up as part of its regular assessment of CDRP activity across the county. That is provided for in the Bill.
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The community call for action is concerned with local crime and disorder issues and therefore it is entirely appropriate for the local district councillor and district overview and scrutiny committees to deal with such issues.
Finally, I turn to Amendment No. 108, which seeks to simplify the drafting of Clause 17(4). We have used the term,
rather than referring to a “councillor” because the phraseology needs to capture the City of London as well as other councils. The parliamentary draftsman did not consider the word “councillor” to be apt to describe all the members of the Common Council of the City of London, including the Lord Mayor of London and aldermen. So it was drafted in that way for that reason.
I hope that my explanations will satisfy my noble friend Lady Henig, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, acting in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Henig: As ever, my noble friend has gone some way to reassure me. I have listened very carefully to everything that has been said. I fully agree that guidance is just that—guidance. We should not be too prescriptive. I share that view. The problem is, as we all know, that local councils and CDRPs differ in quality. My guess is that the good ones will, indeed, follow the guidance; my worry is that the fair or possibly weak councils will be those where guidance may not be followed. That is precisely where the problems will arise, and why I wanted to have a little more prescription to avoid what will otherwise be difficulties in certain areas.
I would like a bit of consistency here. In debates on earlier parts of the Bill when I was arguing for flexibility, my noble friend assured me that the Government needed reserved powers. While most police authorities would of course be responsible, he said, the Government needed reserved powers because there would be one or two that might be difficult. If that is the case for police authorities, is it not also the case for weak councils? We should be flexible throughout the Bill, and that includes a whole number of areas that we have already had discussions on, such as issues with reserved powers and police authorities. If my noble friend is offering to be flexible there, I would feel more able to be flexible here. On the other hand, if we are going to be prescriptive because police authorities will cause problems, I submit that that is the case with councils and therefore we need to be consistent and be prescriptive for them as well.
In that spirit I draw some comfort from what my noble friend said but I feel that there are issues which we may well have to return to at a later stage, both here and also—I did not have time to say this earlier when we were discussing them—on CDRPs. But, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 105 to 113 not moved.]
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Schedule 6 [Interpretation and modification]:
[Amendment No. 114 not moved.]
Baroness Harris of Richmond moved Amendment No. 115:
The Secretary of State shall collect and interpret data on reporting of offences which manifest prejudice based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity or other group characteristic.”
The noble Baroness said: The amendment ensures a positive obligation to collect data on offences motivated by prejudice. I am grateful to the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association for providing briefing material. Most work on hate crime does not include hate crime committed against disabled people. The lack of statistics hampers work on this issue.
In tackling hate crime of this nature, it would therefore be helpful if police forces were obliged to record details about a person's disability, along with their access needs. We are pleased that the Metropolitan Police have already identified this as an issue and are currently reviewing their procedures to ensure that the statistics that they already collect on hate crime are as accurate as possible. Our organisations raised this matter during the passage of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and the Government said that they would conduct a review of the collection of police statistics. Our organisations would welcome an update on the outcome of that review, if the Minister can provide it.
In the United States, legislation requiring data collection has proved to be a powerful mechanism to confront violent bigotry against individuals on the basis of their race, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity, and has increased public awareness of the problem. As a result, there has been an increase in the reporting of those offences. The Department of Justice has established a new toll-free phone number to report complaints of hate crimes. Studies have demonstrated that the victims are more likely to report a hate crime if they know that a special reporting system is in place.
Although the disability equality duty will clearly require the gathering of information about disability, there is no such requirement about sexual orientation. For the avoidance of doubt in relation to disability, to prepare for any future duty concerning sexual orientation and for the better delivery of criminal justice, that should be made clear in the Bill. By placing a specific requirement in the Bill, the Government would make it clear that the collection of hate crime statistics was compulsory. Such a requirement would also complement Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which was brought into force in April 2005, and provides for additional penalties for disability and homophobic hate crimes. Such a requirement would also be consistent with the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order, which requires the collection of statistics in Northern Ireland.
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We also believe that more accurate statistics will help the police to devise effective strategies for dealing with all forms of hate crime. I beg to move.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I support the amendment, to which I have added my name. I am also grateful to the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association for its briefing on this matter. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, refers to debates that we had in 2003 discussing the Criminal Justice Act. I tabled a similar amendment then, but I agree that it was not as effective as this one, because mine addressed only the issue of disability. It did not consider the broader groups categorised in the noble Baroness’s amendment and I prefer hers. It is right that we should take that broader application forward.
The difficulty is that none of us wants to impose greater bureaucracy on those who are trying to prevent, police and prosecute crime. It is proper to ensure that there is a collection of statistics on reported crime so that there is not only greater public awareness of what constitutes a crime but that people have greater confidence that if they report crimes, they will be taken seriously. The amendment is intended to ensure that the victims of hate crimes have the confidence to report it—which currently they may not. It is possible that it is under-reported. We are not trying to encourage people who are the victims of what they think may be a crime that does not fall within this category to go ahead and report it. It is an attempt to balance bureaucracy with the effective reporting of crime.
I note that before Mr Charles Clarke went the way of a few Cabinet Ministers recently, he said that he accepted that the way in which the Home Office collects statistics may not be sufficiently robust—he was talking about the broad range of crime statistics—and that there was a lack of public and police confidence in them. He said that there would be a Home Office review of the collection of statistics. When he comes to respond, can the Minister say whether the Government are still minded to carry forward that review and, if so, whether the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, in her amendment will form part of that broader review?
3.15 pm
Baroness Darcy de Knayth: Very briefly, having also been enthused by the briefing of the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, I give a warm welcome from the sidelines—because I have not taken any part in discussion on the Bill. We have heard the evidence from the United States about how data collection increases public awareness and reporting of offences. A free phone line, if it were possible, would be a very good idea, too. We know from the helpline for the London bombings how very helpful that has been. I hope the Minister will respond very positively to the amendment.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I hope that what I am about to say will be viewed as very positive. It is certainly intended to be. I am very interested in the amendment. Anything that tackles prejudice and bigotry is of concern to the Government. We take those problems very seriously and solutions are very
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Ultimately, I argue that the proposed new clause is unnecessary, quite simply because the Home Secretary already has very wide powers under Section 45 of the Police Act 1996 to obtain the sort of data to which all speakers have referred. I know that that Act attracted some criticism from the Labour Benches when it was being pushed through Parliament, but we certainly did not have a go at it on the basis of the data of this nature which it was collecting, because clearly it is conducive to ensuring that we are all better informed about police work.
It might assist your Lordships if I say a few words about the work that is already in train to obtain the information which the proposed new clause would request. The Secretary of State has existing statutory powers to require chief constables to provide statistics on crime that are currently exercised under the police annual data requirement. Home Office proposals made under the annual data requirement for 2007-08 include requests for crime and incident data that include instances where homophobia and prejudice against race and religion have been identified as factors. I am more than happy to give an undertaking this afternoon that we are more than willing to add disability to the list in this proposal.
This April, the Chief Constables’ Council of the Association of Chief Police Officers also resolved to collect data on hate crime where race, religion or homophobia were contributory factors. It has requested information from forces from July 2006 onwards. This request does not have statutory force, but ACPO is the stakeholder body which the Home Office consults in determining the annual data requirement, so it would not be difficult for the Home Office to ensure that this issue is picked up actively as part of its approach. Provided that feasibility and practicality issues that were raised in the initial consultation can be overcome, it is likely that the collection of hate crime data for a range of motivations, including disability and sexual orientation, will form part of the 2007-08 annual data requirement, particularly given that ACPO already supports such monitoring. This data collection will
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The arrangements for consultation on the annual data requirement with the Association of Chief Police Officers have been working well, and we do not believe that creating specific statutory data requirements outside these consultative arrangements is the best way in which to obtain high quality and reliable data. If it would assist all those who have contributed to the debate, I shall certainly ask Home Office officials to contact them to discuss our proposed approach to this.
I also advise the Committee that the Statistics Commission is conducting a review of crime statistics and is due to report in September. I shall ensure that today’s debate is drawn very carefully to its attention. As the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, mentioned, a separate and independent review set up under the previous Home Secretary is planned to report in September. Again, I have no doubt that the review body will want to reflect carefully on this debate. I shall endeavour to draw out the salient points made by contributors so that those views are fed in.
In summary, the powers are there and we have consultation arrangements in train. I have given a commitment to ensure that this form of hate crime is added to the list. For those reasons, I do not think that an amendment of the type proposed would take us any further or add anything to that which we can do.
Baroness Harris of Richmond: I am very grateful to the Minister for the partial reassurance that he gives. I look forward to any approach from Home Office officials as it may enable them to understand a little more deeply and even encourage them to include amendments of this type in legislation. We have had a number of government Bills on these matters over the years, and it would be extremely helpful if this sort of amendment could finally be included in one to demonstrate an inclusive agreement that we are all keen to progress in these areas. I know that the Government have been very keen in the past to progress these matters. The amendment was an encouragement for them to do that little bit more, and to do so without having to be constantly reminded. Progress has been a little slow. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for her support. I well remember our debates on successive Home Office Bills. In the light of what the Minister said, at this point I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone moved Amendment No. 116:
“Children subject to ASBO proceedingsSections 1(10D), 1(10E) (anti-social behaviour orders) and 1C(9C) (orders in conviction in criminal proceedings) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37) are repealed.”
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The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 116 would reinstate the 70-year-old protection of reporting restrictions in the cases of children who are subject to ASBO proceedings or ASBO breach proceedings. There would once again be a presumption of reporting restrictions and therefore the protection of anonymity for the child. Article 40(2)(vii) of the Convention on the Rights of the Child clearly asserts that children have the right to privacy,
in all decision-making. Article 19 requires states to ensure that the child is protected from all forms of violence.
Until the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, then reinforced by the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, reporting restrictions were in place under the Children and Young Persons Act 1932, consolidated by the 1933 Act. In other words, it was understood that children were in need of protection, even children in trouble. Have the Government really altered their view that children do not need this protection? The position was changed in 2003 when the deeply unattractive and damaging process of naming and shaming was introduced. It is a sort of modern-day version of putting someone in the stocks, and children at that. We argued against the process then but are even more convinced now as we have seen how uncivilised, uncivilising and seriously counterproductive the process has proven to be.
The Government argue that the orders are a way that communities can be told how children subject to ASBOs are being dealt with and that they encourage local monitoring of these children by identifying them. But there are plenty of ways of telling communities of strategies, programmes and services that are available to local children and families without targeting and publicising individuals. Indeed, local authorities are required by statute to prepare crime and disorder strategies and children and young people plans, and to involve local people in their development.
I declare an interest as chair of Rethinking Crime and Punishment, where we are running an extremely positive programme of engaging local communities in the development and delivery of community penalties in the Thames Valley. We have seen how constructive such an approach is. However, the public targeting, publicising and inevitable demonising of young people is a quite different matter. In most cases it creates misery for the child and the family, often accompanied by bullying and ostracism. I think that we are all familiar with the sort of press coverage given to children in such situations and with how some of the tabloids really go to town in making the most—indeed, the worst—of the sort of trouble that children have gotten into.
For a few, there is the equally undesirable and counterproductive result where they acquire a sort of badge of honour; and that is no better. Finger pointing and targeting produces resentments and ultimately does absolutely nothing to achieve what we
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This is the law of unintended consequences—unforeseen, I am sure, by the Government. But the least we can do is to protect these children from being labelled, then named and shamed. I do not know anyone working with children either within or outwith the criminal justice system who has ever supported such an approach. Furthermore, there has been no detailed evaluation or assessment of what ASBOs actually achieve in outcomes. We know that they criminalise young people earlier, but do communities feel safer? Are communities safer? Are ASBOs effective in combating low-level crime? Until we know the answers to these and many other questions, these children and the communities in which they live are being served very badly by being named and shamed in this way, as are we all by being complicit in what is going on. I beg to move.
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