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There is no chance that this provision will pass through this House. I have yet to find anybody who supports the Government, not only inside the Chamber but outside it. I say to the Government that many of their most loyal supporters will feel compelled to vote against them unless there is a change of heart.
Baroness Stern: I support the amendment. I begin by making it clear that although the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, may feel he is in an awkward position and in some way is special pleading because he is talking about a job that he held, he has no reason to feel that at all. I have not met anyone who sees any sense in this proposal.
I should like briefly to bring to the discussion the perspective of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member. The Joint Committee dealt with this proposal in its 10th report. It noted that Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons,
- “is an important part of the machinery for upholding the human rights of prisoners and ensuring compliance with human rights standards in prisons”.
The inspectorate, the committee said, is,
- “in large part a human rights monitoring body—a non-judicial means of preventing future violations of the human rights of prisoners”.
“The effectiveness of the system for inspecting and monitoring prisons therefore directly affects the UK’s ability to meet its international obligations”.
The Joint Committee was also concerned about whether the new inspectorate arrangements would meet the United Kingdom Government’s obligations under the optional protocol against torture, which the
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The committee asked whether the new arrangements meet the requirement for an independent national preventive mechanism to inspect places of detention. In pursuit of its inquiry, the committee raised a number of points with the Government and received assurances that the new arrangements would assure independence and continued effectiveness. In fact, in their response to the committee, the Government argued that the reformed inspectorate would be more independent, more transparent and more robust for two reasons: the power given to the Chief Inspector of Justice, Community Safety and Custody to require Ministers to lay any report before Parliament, and by making it explicit that the chief inspector shall publish every report in whatever way he or she wishes.
It will not surprise the Committee to know that the Joint Committee on Human Rights was not convinced and concluded:
“We cannot share the Government's confidence about the future in the absence of explicit statutory provision underpinning these assurances”.
The committee set out six specific guarantees that seemed to it to be required to be written into the Bill. I shall run through them quickly. There was a requirement that the inspection function in relation to prisons be carried out by actual visits to places of detention, because that is not currently clear. There was a requirement that there should be regular visits, because that is not clear. There was a requirement for stronger guarantees of independence, including removal of the power of ministerial direction; an express power in the Bill of unannounced inspection; an express power for the inspector to set his or her own standards; and an express requirement that prisons inspection be carried out by reference to human rights standards. None of those is in the Bill but they seemed to the Joint Committee to be the minimum necessary to ensure independence.
The committee was of the view that without those guarantees the new inspectorate would not be compatible with the requirements of the optional protocol and that there would be a greater risk of breaches of the human rights of prisoners, especially the right to life and the right not to be subject to inhumane or degrading treatment. Here, one is reminded of the warning given by the chief inspector, Anne Owers, in 2002, about the threat to life because of the absence of a proper detoxification regime at Styal prison, and the subsequent six deaths of women prisoners there, after which a detoxification regime was introduced; and the attention that she has drawn to the frequent strip-searching of children under 18, who may have come from a background of physical and sexual abuse, which is very relevant to the need to prevent inhumane and degrading treatment. Whenever people are locked away, completely under the control of others, independent and effective inspection is needed. The Joint Committee on Human Rights felt that the Government's proposals would not provide that safeguard.
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Much has been made of the benefit that amalgamation would bring in enabling inspection across the criminal justice system—the joined-up fulcrum to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, referred. I have frequently pondered this since it was first suggested and I am still unclear what on earth it could mean. I am moved to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, that the whole amalgamation is foolhardy. I can see all sorts of linkages that require working together in all directions. The Chief Inspector of Prisons may find hundreds of mentally ill people in prison who should be transferred to hospital and may want to have a joint project with the Department of Health in that regard. The probation service may discover failings in resettlement work in prisons and see benefits in joint work with the prisons inspectorate—in fact, it has; it did and a thematic report was produced. The Chief Inspector of Prisons may find prisons full of inadequate, sick people convicted of minor offences and have questions about why they were prosecuted. A joint study with the Crown Prosecution Service is perfectly possible.
That is the only argument that the Government have made for this merger: that something that is joined up will be better than something that is not joined up. Can the Minister say what inspections need to be done across the whole criminal system that need to involve the Chief Inspector of Prisons and have such overriding importance that they call for this massive reorganisation, which has so little support?
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Lord Acton: Like my noble friends Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, Lord Dubs and Lord Borrie, who expressed his great concern at Second Reading but cannot be in his place this evening, and like noble Lords in all parts of the Committee who have made a series of devastating speeches, I fear that, without the amendments, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons would be in the gravest danger. For years I have admired successive chief inspectors of prisons and the prisons inspectorate, for they have been a beacon of civilisation. I oppose anything that risks dimming that beacon. I ask the Minister to think again.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I regret the lack of scrutiny in the other place of the matters to which the amendments refer. No doubt there was a reason why time was unavailable. I have little personal experience of these matters, although when my late noble kinsman was Home Secretary, he had a reputation in the Prison Service of asking questions on prison visits that it had not expected a Home Secretary to ask. I believe that verdict was intended to be a compliment.
I did, however, have the privilege of chairing the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the 1997 to 2001 Parliament. We were a committee that, in a troubled province, had a range of opinion that stretched from Peter Robinson MP, Andrew Hunter MP, then the MP for Basingstoke, at one end, to Ken Livingstone, then the MP for Brent East, but we divided on amendments only twice in four years on a
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I remark in conclusion that it is a nice irony that the Whip on the Bench during the presentation by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, of his amendments was the Whip who normally answers to your Lordships’ House on Treasury matters.
The Earl of Listowel: I strongly support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham. I look forward to the Minister’s response, and I am sure that the change is very well intentioned, but my concern, having listened to the current chief inspector, is that the services in these settings may be diluted in the new arrangements. The chief inspector emphasised that she visits a prison every week. She is so closely in touch with what goes on, and she has such a strong voice, coming from that background. She drew attention to concerns about the treatment of families and children in the Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre—the inspectorate has responsibility in that area, too. That was so useful.
Following that statement, in part, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and I visited Yarl’s Wood earlier this year. We saw the real concerns that the chief inspector had expressed, and I am very grateful that the Government have now introduced a review and recognised that there are issues about the lengths of stay. One woman to whom I spoke had been locked up there for five months with her eight year-old and 16 year-old children.
It is extremely important to recognise, as I think we all do, that many of these very vulnerable people should be in mental health institutions rather than custody. With such vulnerable adults and young people in our prisons, and such a scarcity of resources, we must always have a strong advocate to say that resources must be addressed at such people’s needs. We must keep a strong undiluted voice to champion the needs of these vulnerable adults and young people.
The Earl of Sandwich: I have a feeling that the Minister will say that we are mourning a death prematurely, but I do not know how she can say that after hearing such expert information, especially from my noble friends who have served in this area. From time to time, I have contributed to asylum Bills and
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My noble friend says that he is somewhat cynical about this new measure, which is no surprise because he has been a very model of an inspector. He is now a model of modesty when he defends his own, old, vital position. What evidence can the Minister provide to prove her faith in the system and that the inspectorate still can survive, and show that this Bill can gold-plate such a remarkable institution? Everything seems to point to the contrary.
Lord Hylton: I guarantee to be brief. Over the years I have visited individual prisoners in all the prisons of Northern Ireland, and a small sample of those in England, including male and female establishments. I have corresponded with a further quantity of prisoners and have been for many years a member of the All-Party Penal Affairs Group. Therefore, I have no hesitation whatever in supporting this group of amendments. I urge the Government to rethink their policy so that we can continue to have an independent and freestanding inspectorate of prisons.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I wish to speak in strong support of the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, to preserve the current status of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons. First, I pay tribute to the work done week by week, quietly, and with non-partisan determination, by those at the inspectorate who provide a detailed, objective and expert assessment of our prisons and immigration detention facilities. The Government’s plans to subsume it within a conglomerate of criminal justice inspectorates are misguided. I come to that conclusion after listening to the debates that have taken place on this matter over the past months, both within and outside Parliament.
I have tested the views put forward by both sides of the argument against a set of questions that I believe any Government must consider when they plan administrative reorganisations on the grand scale. I shall set out some of those questions. Is the organisation functioning effectively now? What is it doing wrong that can be remedied only by structural change? What is the added value that it will gain from structural change that cannot be gained in any other way? What will be lost by change? Is that loss critical to the long-term effectiveness of the organisation? Is there an alternative route to improving the function of the organisation—one that on this occasion would not have the disadvantages of the Government’s proposals? The debate today has been a devastating critique of the Government’s plans, put forward from around the Committee. We have heard a range of views explaining why the Government’s plans are deeply flawed and why they have failed to pass the test put by the questions that I have considered.
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Subsuming the prisons inspectorate within a wider parent body is inappropriate. It would significantly damage its effectiveness. There are alternative, preferable options for improving its operation within the criminal justice family, without damage to the prisons inspectorate itself. In opening, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, drew our attention to the inelegantly titled option 7 in the policy document.
The Government have consistently recognised that the Inspectorate of Prisons is a beacon of excellence. It simply does not make sense to subsume it within a system that the Government have said is not operating as effectively as the independent prisons inspectorate does. Why would people of the current and past calibre of chief inspector wish to be deputy to a new portmanteau chief inspector when they cannot speak out independently or have independent access to Ministers? The Government have argued that the weakness of the current system is that the criminal justice system acts in silos. Of course it is important that the inspectorates have a dialogue, but there are perfectly sensible ways in which inspections could proceed effectively without combining the inspectorates. When the chief inspectors of the various services got together with Ofsted in 1999 and asked the Government to fund a secretariat that would co-ordinate joint inspections and process joint inspection reports, the Government refused to provide funding. That is a route which would provide a solution for the Government.
We have deep concerns about Clause 30(3), which states that,
- “the Chief Inspector shall have regard to such aspects of government policy as the responsible ministers may direct”.
It is clear that that would prevent the chief inspector speaking out against and criticising the Government in certain circumstances. The Government’s response from Fiona Mactaggart in another place was to say:
“Ministers will not have the power to direct the chief inspector other than where a statute provides for it”.—[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee D, 28/3/06; col. 246.]
That is exactly the point of Clause 30(3). This statute gives Ministers a potentially wide power of intervention. Any assurance that a Minister currently in office would not use the power of course would be accepted, but it cannot bind future Secretaries of State and Administrations. We really do not think that this is a sufficient measure, and there have to be guarantees in the statute.
The independence of the Inspectorate of Prisons is paramount. In another place the Government maintained that this can be achieved by creating a statutory office of the inspector, but we simply do not see why that in itself would guarantee the independence of the position. Many statutory offices are created by legislation, but that does not necessarily mean that they are independent.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, also referred to the important matter of the UN convention in his opening remarks. I read with interest the statement made by Anne Owers on 28 June. She expressed her particular concern that the Joint Committee on Human Rights and other international experts do not believe that the current provisions for the new
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In conclusion, I argue that the Government’s proposals pose significant risks to the future independence and excellence of the prisons inspectorate. Indeed, the Minister in another place, Fiona Mactaggart, recognised that there are risks. She maintained that the Government had,
- “put a lot of energy into the design of the inspectorate to minimise those risks”.—[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee D, 28/3/06; col. 252.]
But I argue that significant risks remain, risks that must not be taken, which is why Clause 28 should not stand part of the Bill. My hope is that the Government will take the opportunity of the Summer Recess to think again on this matter and come back on Report and agree with noble Lords that the right thing to do is amend this Bill and thus preserve the independence and current status of the inspectorate.
6.15 pm
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I have rarely been showered with such compliments. “Extreme folly”, “stupid”, “silly”, “without light”—the compliments flowed from all around the Committee.
I say straightaway that it is no part of the Government’s intention to restrict, limit or water down the independence of the inspectorate. If we were trying to silence the inspectorate, I respectfully suggest that this would be a very odd method to adopt. It would be odd, too, in view of the individuals that we have historically chosen to fulfil the role, in relation not only to prisons but to the Crown Prosecution Service, probation and police. All the inspectorates hold one thing in common: they are led by rigorous, independent free spirits who do not restrain themselves one iota from being not only one thorn but a number of thorns in the side of any Government—and I welcome those thorns. It is of absolute importance that any Government should be assured that the rigour and vigour necessary to undertake robust and effective inspection remains. They are, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, rightly said, the stuff of which security is made.
If we had wished to choose a puppet—someone who would bow to the Government’s will—it would be odd indeed to have chosen the names of Tumim, Ramsbotham and Owers. No matter which complexion of Government we have benefited from, nothing in our history indicates that the Government of the day are so foolish as to choose someone who lacks that vital component of independence of spirit. If that was our intent, we have failed in a consummate way.
Let me put to rest the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that this is an attempt to silence the inspectorate, and the suggestion made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, that we in some way intend to rein it in. The noble and learned Lord and I have both laboured in the job of lawyers and he knows that we look for evidence—and the evidence is that we have always failed to do that because we have never tried to do it. I can assure the Committee that it is no part of our intention to do that now.
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Let us look at the issues that have arisen. All around the Committee it is said that we do not need to change—the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”—and others say that this immutable position must remain. Regrettably, we are seeking to deal with a 21st-century difficulty with a 20th-century model. In moving forward, we have to look at the most effective way of guaranteeing the rights of individuals, the improvement of the conditions in which they are held and a better understanding of the fact that the criminal justice system is now interlinked.
Why do I say that? Because before 2003—and I go back to the report of Lord Justice Auld—it was clear that the criminal justice system was not working well in unison. Each part individually was of superb construction. I would compare it to the erstwhile Olympic relay team that the Americans were blessed with: fast, the best in its field, effective, superb, a thing of beauty. But it lacked one essential component: an understanding that in a relay you have to have a baton, that the baton has to be passed from individual to individual, and that the only way you win is by going across the line. We needed to create a quintessentially British relay team—perhaps not quite as fashionable or as sleek, but knowing a number of things: first, what a baton looks like; secondly, to whom it must be given; and, thirdly, what the finishing line looks like and where to go through it.
That was one of the problems with which the criminal justice system was faced. We have done a lot to bring its components closer together—the creation of the National Criminal Justice Board, the creation of the local criminal justice boards, working together through the crime and disorder reduction partnerships, and the work with the local strategic partnerships have all played their part. However, we have also learnt that the management of offenders has to be end-to-end, and that if we are to inspect the system and the way in which individual offenders and victims move through it, we have to understand it end-to-end.
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