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House of Lords
Tuesday, 11 July 2006.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.
Lord Bruce-Lockhart
Sir Alexander John Bruce-Lockhart, Knight, OBE, having been created Lord Bruce-Lockhart, of The Weald in the County of Kent, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Astor of Hever and the Lord Hanningfield.
Lord Low of Dalston
Colin MacKenzie Low, Esquire, CBE, having been created Baron Low of Dalston, of Dalston in the London Borough of Hackney, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Baroness Warnock and the Lord Morris of Manchester, and made the solemn affirmation.
Guantanamo Bay: Suicides
2.51 pm
Viscount Waverley asked Her Majesty’s Government:
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Triesman): My Lords, we are very concerned about the deaths of the three detainees at Guantanamo Bay detention facility and await the results of the investigation into those deaths that has been promised by the United States Government. We note the serious concern that has been expressed by the President of the United States.
Viscount Waverley: My Lords, are the Government aware that they are tainted by association with an overall strategy that is demeaning the objective and that will arguably be self-defeating? How can we ensure that the likes of Guantanamo are closed and that the prisoners who are guilty are not made martyrs, while allowing for a steady release of the remainder?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, we have made it clear that the circumstances in which detainees continue to be held at Guantanamo Bay are unacceptable and that it should be closed. I think that people know our view, and I do not accept that we are tainted, because we have expressed our view. The handling of detainees has to be consistent with our objectives, including preventing further terrorist attacks, undermining the work of those who recruit terrorists
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Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a wide range of opinion in the UK that thinks that many human rights are being violated in Guantanamo Bay? Have our Government made it clear enough that they think it ought to be closed?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I can confirm that the Government have made it clear on a number of occasions that the circumstances are unacceptable and that Guantanamo Bay should be closed. I fully associate myself with the views that have been expressed by the Government on this occasion.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, can the Minister assure us that British Ministers, while visiting the United States, will take every opportunity in private and in public to insist that the United States is as subject to international law as all other states? One of the most distressing things about the Bush Administration and the neo-conservatives who have advised them is a strong belief that international law applies to others but cannot override the sovereignty of the United States. This is a clear case in which the Geneva conventions have been flouted by the United States although there are others in which the United States appears to regard international law as applying to others but not, on a reciprocal basis, also to the United States.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, as I said a few moments ago, we have made the point that the facility should be closed and have frequently urged that international law should be respected. I do not know that anybody in the United States could be in any doubt about our view on those matters.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, the Americans have a right to keep some rather terrifying potential or alleged killers under guard, but would not the friendliest advice to them be to move Guantanamo to the mainland? The idea of trying to evade some of the standards of human rights by keeping the prison beyond American sovereignty has clearly failed, and there has been a terrible backlash against American opinion throughout the world. Is not the way forward to move Guantanamo to the mainland, observe the new ruling of the Supreme Court that military tribunals are not adequate and ensure that the prisoners there have a right to a proper trial under due process? Is that not the best advice that we could now give?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, the noble Lord makes a vital point. There are people being held who plainly pose a very serious risk to the security of all of us, including those of us in this country. It is worth
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Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, is there any reason to suppose that the interrogation of those remaining unlawfully detained could be of any value to counter-terrorism today?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I have no means of knowing whether the United States feels that it has obtained the information that it requires, and I shall not speculate on that. However, whatever methods are used, whatever form of imprisonment is used and whatever form of trial is envisaged, they should accord with law and with international law.
Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I am confident that Her Majesty's Government wouldnot contemplate keeping anyone in the same circumstances as Guantanamo Bay. When did we make it clear to the Americans that the place should be closed?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, the Prime Minister made it clear some time ago. My noble and learned friend the Attorney-General has made it clear in the House and elsewhere. I think that the United Kingdom Government’s view has been well known for a long time. I repeat—I ask noble Lords to understand—that there is a desire in general to make sure that some extremely dangerous peopleto all of us, including those in the United States, are processed in a proper and legal way but that they are also subjected to the proper rigours of law for the acts that they have committed.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the American authorities have asked for eight former British residents to be accepted back into this country? Will the Government deal with that request promptly, given that most of them have families here?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I am not aware that the United States Government have asked us to receive those people who had residence here. However, I know and I think that the House knows that we made vigorous representations on behalf of all of the United Kingdom citizens who were held in Guantanamo Bay. It is a measure of success that they were returned to the United Kingdom.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, could the closure of Guantanamo lead to more extraordinary rendition?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I do not accept that there has been extraordinary rendition, especially in relationship to Guantanamo.
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People Trafficking: Children
2.59 pm
Baroness Knight of Collingtree asked Her Majesty’s Government:
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, prosecutions for child trafficking can be pursued within the terms of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004. Convictions of child traffickers using this new legislation have already been obtained. We are keeping the effectiveness of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 under review. We have no current plans for further legislation.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, did not the Minister in another place, Mr Tony McNulty, very recently confirm that no legal offence of child trafficking existed and that therefore immigration authorities, social services and the police do not take action specifically against it? Is there not now clear evidence that hundreds of children are being trafficked into Britain and used in private houses, cannabis factories and sweatshops? Will the Minister now go further than her very sympathetic answers to this House on 28 June and persuade the Government to legislate against it?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that it is possible to bring cases against those who traffic children under the Sexual Offences Act. Of course, we have now done that successfully, and the Crown Prosecution Service has recorded 10 offenders convicted of child trafficking-related offences who have received prison sentences of up to 18 years. That was up till March of this year. We do not have further data, but I assure the noble Baroness that we are reviewing the Sexual Offences Act and will take steps if we feel that further offences need to be created to bring this dreadful and disgraceful offence to book.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, does the Minister accept that trafficking in women and children is now as profitable as trafficking in drugs? Would she also note UNICEF’s report that twice as many countries are now reporting child abduction and trafficking than was the case two years ago? What priority is the Serious Organised Crime Agency giving to this matter and is there now a common Europe-wide policy to tackle this vile problem?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the noble Lord is right that there appears to be a level of trafficking in women and children for non-sexual work, exploitation and matters of that sort. It is a matter of huge concern to us. I hope that thenoble Lord will be reassured by the work that the Government are doing. We have set up a ministerial
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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, what is being done to ensure that those working in social services, education and health are aware of the pointers that children are being trafficked, given trafficked children’s fear of admitting what has happened to them?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I touched on that in part. We set up the ministerial group on trafficking at the beginning of 2005 to co-ordinate throughout Whitehall the policy that represents a more robust response to this difficulty. A number of departments are engaged; we understand the role that social workers and others are playing. I hope that noble Lords will be pleased to know that, as a result of the work, we have specialist teams of social workers and trained immigration officers at 22 ports to deal with all unaccompanied children, and the DfES is working to safeguard children, too. Noble Lords will know that that is a multidisciplinary response.
Lord Elton: My Lords, when a trafficker is apprehended, what steps are taken to find the children who have been trafficked? Can the Minister tell usa little more about what is done to or for them thereafter? What is the end of the story for them?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, if children are identified, their best interests will always be the key consideration in any decision on whether to return them. We will have a full risk assessment. Unfortunately, on occasion, the children are found with the trafficker—that is part of the identification. We are taking steps to make sure that, when children come in, the visa requirements are such that we know with whom they come in and the purported relationship. Those steps will enable us better to identify the children who go missing.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, if the United States were removed from the schedule of countries covered by the Extradition Act 2003, that would hinder the fight against organised crime, including child trafficking?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, my noble friend is right. The inclusion of the United Statesin Schedule 2 means we can deal with a series of offences, children trafficking and people trafficking for sexual and other exploitation being among those where dual criminality is alleged. It is essential that all
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The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, have the Government studied the Italian example of social intervention, which ensures that every child who has been trafficked has proper protection, therapy and time for reflection? When will they sign the European convention on trafficking?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, with regard to the second issue, as I have said to the House before, consultations are ongoing, and a decision will be arrived at. I am not sure whether the Italian model has been looked at specifically, but I assure noble Lords that, in undertaking the work in the inter-ministerial team chaired by Paul Goggins, we are looking comprehensively at what more we can do. At the moment we believe that the UK is ahead of the game in the protection that we are able to give, but obviously we will look for any further intelligence.
Railways: High-speed Train Services
3.06 pm
Lord Steel of Aikwood asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, while the Government have considered a number of long-distance high-speed rail studies, I am not aware of any studies into high-speed local train services.
Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the proposed reinstatement of the line between Galashiels and Edinburgh proposes a journey time of a full hour, which is the same as it takes to drive? While I would not expect the Minister to comment on that, because it will be a devolved service, could not the Department of Transport encourage train operators throughout the UK to look at countries such as Spain, where diesels are used that have good acceleration and gradient-climbing capability?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I will be careful, as the noble Lord invites me, not to trespass on to a devolved aspect of railways. New rolling stock is coming on-stream in Scotland that will improve the service. We are interested in improving the pick-up speeds of trains on local services, but when we talk about high-speed trains we are talking predominantly about trains that travel at over 125 miles per hour, which are obviously not suited for commuter services.
Lord Marsh: My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a simple explanation for the difference between the foreign passenger railway systems and that in the United Kingdom? Does he agree that a
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that may have been truer of the past than it is of the present. The noble Lord will recognise the substantial investment that is going into the railways and has been going in over the past decade. He will appreciate that conspicuous improvements are being made, particularly to our commuter and short-distance services, which were the basis of the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Steel.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the French railway system, apart from the TGVs, is almost in meltdown through lack of maintenance and that there is serious concern there about the safety of some branch lines? Does he agree, therefore, that what we have achieved in this country has been a great deal better than what is happening in France? Our traffic is growing, and theirs is declining.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is always a pleasure to reflect on something at which we are better than the French, therefore I am glad to hear that confirmation from my noble friend. Commuter services, particularly, and short-distance services in Britain present one of the greatest challenges in Europe. There is no city quite like London for having to cope with the number of passengers who have to be moved each day. We are making very good progress in that area and in some respects compare favourably with the rest of the world.
Lord Renton: My Lords, although it is unsafe for trains to run fast on certain small branch lines, is it not the right policy to permit speed on the rail?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, obviously itis in the interests of the operating companies to transport passengers as rapidly as they can, consistent with safety. That is why new trains and new rolling stock have quicker pick-up times between stations in localised travel.
Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, I ask the Minister, with a declared interest, whether he is aware that I share his pleasure that people are coming off the roads and on to rail. In the commuter system using third rail a very large amount of carbon is discharged into the atmosphere by using old-fashioned steel conductor rails. Is there any study, such as that by the New York State Energy Research Association, that seeks to swap steel conductor rails for composite aluminium rails, which do not make such a mess?
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