Lord
Kingsland: I spoke to these amendments at an
earlier point and there is only one additional matter to which I wish
to draw the attention of noble Lords. I am prompted to do so by the
comments of the noble Baroness about the appropriateness of the
judiciary making judgments about
forums.
The United Kingdom has
been a party to two European conventions; one is the Council Framework
Decision of 13 June 2000 on the European arrest warrant and surrender
procedures and the other is the European Convention on Extradition.
Paragraph 7 of Article 4 of the Council Framework Decision
states:
The executing
judicial authority shall refuse to execute the European arrest
warrant,
7. where the
European arrest warrant relates to offences
which:
(a) are
regarded by the law of the executing member state as having been
committed in whole or in part in the territory of the executing member
state or in a place treated as
such.
So during the
term of office of this Government they have agreed, on behalf of the
United Kingdom, to that clause in that decision. It is quite plain that
we think a judge is entitled to take that decision. Similar provisions
are set out in Article 7 of the European Convention on
Extradition.
Lord
Tebbit: I wonder if my noble friend could help me
on a point. I have heard several references this evening to the Enron
Three. Who are these three people who presumably have been convicted in
a court of law of having some connection with
Enron?
Lord
Kingsland: I share the conclusion reached by my
noble friend. I understood them to be described as the NatWest Three
because it has been alleged that they sought to defraud NatWest. I know
nothing about any fraud on Enron.
11 July 2006 : Column 656
Baroness
Scotland of Asthal: Since it was I who referred
to the Enron Three, for his erudition I invite the noble Lord to look
at paragraph 66 of the judgment of Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice
Ouseley who said
that,
It
is important that on the prosecution case the benefit received by the
defendants and their alleged co-conspirators was derived from funds
paid by Enron on the strength of false representations made to the
company by Fastow. Enron was deceived into parting with 20 million US
dollars. What the director thought about the views of the City of
London Police in 2002 is in my view neither here nor
there.
So the court
thinks that they are the Enron
Three.
Lord
Kingsland: I am not aware, at this stage of the
judgment, that the court is entitled to take any view about guilt or
innocence. That, I thought, was the whole point of the noble
Baroness argument right at the
beginning.
Baroness
Scotland of Asthal: I agree. I am simply seeking
to clarify why I referred to them as the Enron Three. I did so because
in the judgment it appears that the allegationit is but an
allegationis that it was Enron which was defrauded in the way
complained of. That is not my judgment; it is not what the Government
say; I am simply referring to the judgment of Lord Justice Laws and Mr
Justice
Ouseley.
Lord
Kingsland: If what was said in paragraph 66 of
the judgment of the Court of Appeal was not intended as a reflection
either on their innocence or guilt, how can that paragraph possibly be
an answer to my noble friends question? I wish to test the
opinion of the
Committee.
7.24
pm
On Question, Whether the said
amendment(No. 187) shall be agreed
to?
Their Lordships divided:
Contents, 192; Not-Contents,
109.
Division
No.
2CONTENTSAddington,
L.
Anelay of St
Johns, B.
Astor,
V.
Astor of
Hever, L.
Attlee,
E.
Barker,
B.
Bell,
L.
Best,
L.
Biffen,
L.
Blackwell,
L.
Blaker,
L.
Bledisloe,
V.
Bonham-Carter
of Yarnbury,
B.
Bridgeman,
V.
Brooke of
Sutton Mandeville,
L.
Brougham and
Vaux, L.
Byford,
B.
Carnegy of
Lour,
B.
Chadlington,
L.
Chidgey,
L.
Clement-Jones,
L.
Colville of
Culross,
V.
Colwyn,
L.
Condon,
L.
Cope of
Berkeley, L.
[Teller]
Cotter,
L.
Craigavon,
V.
Crickhowell,
L.
Currie of
Marylebone,
L.
Darcy de
Knayth, B.
De
Mauley,
L.
Denham,
L.
Dholakia,
L.
Dixon-Smith,
L.
D'Souza,
B.
Eccles,
V.
Eccles of
Moulton, B.
Eden
of Winton,
L.
Elliott of
Morpeth,
L.
Elton,
L.
11 July 2006 : Column 657
Erroll,
E.
Falkland,
V.
Falkner of
Margravine,
B.
Feldman,
L.
Ferrers,
E.
Finlay of
Llandaff,
B.
Fookes,
B.
Freeman,
L.
Fritchie,
B.
Garden,
L.
Gardner of
Parkes,
B.
Garel-Jones,
L.
Geddes,
L.
Glasgow,
E.
Glenarthur,
L.
Glentoran,
L.
Goodhart,
L.
Goodlad,
L.
Greaves,
L.
Griffiths of
Fforestfach,
L.
Hamwee,
B.
Hanham,
B.
Hanningfield,
L.
Harris of
Richmond,
B.
Hayhoe,
L.
Henley,
L.
Higgins,
L.
Hodgson of
Astley Abbotts,
L.
Hogg,
B.
Holme of
Cheltenham,
L.
Hooper,
B.
Howard of
Rising, L.
Howe,
E.
Howe of
Aberavon, L.
Howe
of Idlicote,
B.
Howell of
Guildford,
L.
Hunt of
Wirral,
L.
Hylton,
L.
Inglewood,
L.
Jenkin of
Roding,
L.
Kimball,
L.
King of
Bridgwater,
L.
Kingsland,
L.
Kirkwood of
Kirkhope,
L.
Knight of
Collingtree,
B.
Laidlaw,
L.
Laing of
Dunphail,
L.
Lamont of
Lerwick,
L.
Lawson of
Blaby, L.
Lee of
Trafford,
L.
Lester of
Herne Hill,
L.
Lindsay,
E.
Linklater of
Butterstone,
B.
Liverpool,
E.
Livsey of
Talgarth,
L.
Lloyd-Webber,
L.
Lucas,
L.
Luke,
L.
MacGregor of
Pulham Market,
L.
Mackie of
Benshie,
L.
MacLaurin of
Knebworth,
L.
McNally,
L.
Maddock,
B.
Marland,
L.
Marlesford,
L.
Masham of
Ilton,
B.
Mawhinney,
L.
Mayhew of
Twysden,
L.
Methuen,
L.
Miller of
Chilthorne Domer,
B.
Miller of
Hendon,
B.
Monson,
L.
Montrose,
D.
Morris of
Bolton, B.
Moser,
L.
Neuberger,
B.
Newby,
L.
Newcastle,
Bp.
Noakes,
B.
Northesk,
E.
Norton of
Louth,
L.
Oakeshott of
Seagrove Bay,
L.
O'Cathain,
B.
Oppenheim-Barnes,
B.
Palmer,
L.
Patten,
L.
Pearson of
Rannoch,
L.
Phillips of
Sudbury,
L.
Pilkington of
Oxenford,
L.
Plumb,
L.
Plummer of St.
Marylebone,
L.
Rawlings,
B.
Razzall,
L.
Reay,
L.
Redesdale,
L.
Rees-Mogg,
L.
Renton,
L.
Roberts of
Conwy, L.
Roberts
of Llandudno,
L.
Rodgers of
Quarry Bank,
L.
Rotherwick,
L.
Russell-Johnston,
L.
Saatchi,
L.
St John of
Fawsley,
L.
Saltoun of
Abernethy,
Ly.
Sanderson of
Bowden,
L.
Seccombe,
B.
Selkirk of
Douglas,
L.
Selsdon,
L.
Sharp of
Guildford,
B.
Sharples,
B.
Shaw of
Northstead,
L.
Sheikh,
L.
Shephard of
Northwold,
B.
Shutt of
Greetland, L.
[Teller]
Skelmersdale,
L.
Slim,
V.
Soulsby of
Swaffham Prior,
L.
Southwell and
Nottingham,
Bp.
Steinberg,
L.
Stern,
B.
Stoddart of
Swindon,
L.
Strathclyde,
L.
Taverne,
L.
Taylor of
Holbeach,
L.
Tebbit,
L.
Teverson,
L.
Thatcher,
B.
Thomas of
Gresford,
L.
Thomas of
Swynnerton,
L.
Thomas of
Walliswood,
B.
Thomas of
Winchester,
B.
Tonge,
B.
Tordoff,
L.
Trefgarne,
L.
Trumpington,
B.
Tyler,
L.
Ullswater,
V.
Vallance of
Tummel, L.
Verma,
B.
Vinson,
L.
Waddington,
L.
Wade of
Chorlton,
L.
Wakeham,
L.
Wallace of
Saltaire,
L.
Walmsley,
B.
Walpole,
L.
Wilcox,
B.
Williams of
Crosby, B.
11 July 2006 : Column 658
Williamson of Horton,
L.
Willoughby de
Broke, L.
Windlesham,
L.
NOT
CONTENTSAdonis,
L.
Ahmed,
L.
Alli,
L.
Amos, B. [Lord
President.]
Andrews,
B.
Archer of
Sandwell,
L.
Bach,
L.
Bassam of
Brighton,
L.
Bernstein of
Craigweil,
L.
Borrie,
L.
Brett,
L.
Brooke of
Alverthorpe,
L.
Brookman,
L.
Burlison,
L.
Campbell-Savours,
L.
Carter of
Coles,
L.
Chandos,
V.
Christopher,
L.
Clark of
Windermere,
L.
Clarke of
Hampstead,
L.
Crawley,
B.
Cunningham of
Felling,
L.
Davidson of
Glen Clova,
L.
Davies of
Coity, L.
Davies
of Oldham, L.
[Teller]
Desai,
L.
Dixon,
L.
Drayson,
L.
Dubs,
L.
Elder,
L.
Evans of
Parkside,
L.
Evans of
Temple Guiting,
L.
Falconer of
Thoroton, L. [Lord
Chancellor.]
Farrington
of Ribbleton,
B.
Faulkner of
Worcester,
L.
Foster of
Bishop Auckland,
L.
Fyfe of
Fairfield,
L.
Gale,
B.
Gibson of
Market Rasen,
B.
Giddens,
L.
Gilbert,
L.
Golding,
B.
Goldsmith,
L.
Gordon of
Strathblane,
L.
Gould of
Brookwood,
L.
Grocott, L.
[Teller]
Harris
of Haringey,
L.
Hart of
Chilton,
L.
Haskel,
L.
Haworth,
L.
Henig,
B.
Hogg of
Cumbernauld,
L.
Hollis of
Heigham,
B.
Howarth of
Breckland,
B.
Howarth of
Newport,
L.
Howells of St.
Davids, B.
Hoyle,
L.
Hughes of
Woodside, L.
Hunt
of Kings Heath,
L.
Jones,
L.
Kingsmill,
B.
Kirkhill,
L.
Leitch,
L.
Lofthouse of
Pontefract,
L.
McDonagh,
B.
McIntosh of
Hudnall,
B.
MacKenzie of
Culkein,
L.
Mackenzie of
Framwellgate,
L.
McKenzie of
Luton, L.
Mason
of Barnsley,
L.
Massey of
Darwen,
B.
Maxton,
L.
Morgan,
L.
Morgan of
Drefelin,
B.
Morgan of
Huyton, B.
Morris
of Handsworth,
L.
O'Neill of
Clackmannan,
L.
Pendry,
L.
Pitkeathley,
B.
Prys-Davies,
L.
Quin,
B.
Ramsay of
Cartvale,
B.
Rendell of
Babergh,
B.
Robertson of
Port Ellen,
L.
Rooker,
L.
Rosser,
L.
Rowlands,
L.
Royall of
Blaisdon,
B.
Sawyer,
L.
Scotland of
Asthal, B.
Sewel,
L.
Simon,
V.
Smith of
Leigh, L.
Snape,
L.
Soley,
L.
Symons of
Vernham Dean,
B.
Taylor of
Bolton,
B.
Temple-Morris,
L.
Thornton,
B.
Tomlinson,
L.
Trimble,
L.
Tunnicliffe,
L.
Turnberg,
L.
Turner of
Camden,
B.
Warner,
L.
Warwick of
Undercliffe,
B.
Whitaker,
B.
Wilkins,
B.
Woolmer of
Leeds,
L.
Resolved
in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to
accordingly.
7.45
pm
Lord
Kingsland moved Amendments Nos. 188 to
190:
Page 134, line
5, leave out 19A and insert
19B
Page
134, line 23, at end insert-
(1) If the conduct disclosed by the
request was committed partly in the United Kingdom, the judge shall not
order the extradition of the person unless it appears in the light of
all the
11 July 2006 : Column 659
circumstances that it would be in the interests of justice that the
person should be tried in the category 1 territory.
(2) In deciding whether extradition is in
the interests of justice, the judge shall take into account whether the
competent United Kingdom authorities have decided to refrain from
prosecuting the person whose surrender is sought for the conduct
constituting the offence for which extradition is
requested.
Page
142, line 5, at end insert-
Bars to
extradition
(1) Section
79 (bars to extradition) is amended as follows.
(2) After paragraph (d) of subsection (1)
there is inserted-
(e)
forum.
(3) In
subsection (2), for 83 there is substituted
83A.
(4) After
section 83 there is inserted-
(1) If the conduct disclosed by the
request was committed partly in the United Kingdom, the judge shall not
order the extradition of the person unless it appears in the light of
all the circumstances that it would be in the interests of justice that
the person should be tried in the category 2 territory.
(2) In deciding whether extradition is in
the interests of justice, the judge shall take into account whether the
competent United Kingdom authorities have decided to refrain from
prosecuting the person whose surrender is sought for the conduct
constituting the offence for which extradition is
requested.
On Question, amendments agreed
to.
[Amendment No. 191 not
moved.]
Lord
Goodhart moved Amendment No.
191A:
Page 142, line
5, at end insert-
14A
(1) Section 84 (case where person has not been convicted) is amended as
follows.
(2) After subsection
(7) there is inserted-
(7A) The Secretary of State may
not make an order under subsection (7) designating the United States of
America for the purposes of this section unless there is in force an
agreement with the United States of America pursuant to which an order
for the extradition of persons from the United States of America to the
United Kingdom may be obtained in terms relating to the production of
information and evidence similar to those which apply to extradition
from the United Kingdom to the United States of America after the
designation takes effect.
On Question, amendment agreed
to.
Schedule 14, as amended,
agreed
to.
Lord
Bassam of Brighton: I beg to move that the House
be resumed. In moving the Motion I propose that the House should again
consider the Bill in Committee no later than 8.45
pm.
Moved accordingly, and, on
Question, Motion agreed to.
House
resumed.
Royal
Assent
The
Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, I have
to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that
the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and
Measures:
Childcare
Act,
Electoral
Administration
Act,National Lottery
Act,Leicester City
Council Act,
11 July 2006 : Column 660
Liverpool City Council
Act, Maidstone Borough
Council
Act,Church
of England (Miscellaneous Provisions)
Measure,Pastoral
(Amendment)
Measure.