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Lord Kingsland: I spoke to these amendments at an earlier point and there is only one additional matter to which I wish to draw the attention of noble Lords. I am prompted to do so by the comments of the noble Baroness about the appropriateness of the judiciary making judgments about forums.
The United Kingdom has been a party to two European conventions; one is the Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2000 on the European arrest warrant and surrender procedures and the other is the European Convention on Extradition. Paragraph 7 of Article 4 of the Council Framework Decision states:
- “(a) are
regarded by the law of the executing member state as having been
committed in whole or in part in the territory of the executing member
state or in a place treated as
such”.
Lord Tebbit: I wonder if my noble friend could help me on a point. I have heard several references this evening to the Enron Three. Who are these three people who presumably have been convicted in a court of law of having some connection with Enron?
Lord Kingsland: I share the conclusion reached by my noble friend. I understood them to be described as the NatWest Three because it has been alleged that they sought to defraud NatWest. I know nothing about any fraud on Enron.
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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Since it was I who referred to the Enron Three, for his erudition I invite the noble Lord to look at paragraph 66 of the judgment of Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Ouseley who said that,
- “It
is important that on the prosecution case the benefit received by the
defendants and their alleged co-conspirators was derived from funds
paid by Enron on the strength of false representations made to the
company by Fastow. Enron was deceived into parting with 20 million US
dollars. What the director thought about the views of the City of
London Police in 2002 is in my view neither here nor
there”.
Lord Kingsland: I am not aware, at this stage of the judgment, that the court is entitled to take any view about guilt or innocence. That, I thought, was the whole point of the noble Baroness’ argument right at the beginning.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I agree. I am simply seeking to clarify why I referred to them as the Enron Three. I did so because in the judgment it appears that the allegation—it is but an allegation—is that it was Enron which was defrauded in the way complained of. That is not my judgment; it is not what the Government say; I am simply referring to the judgment of Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Ouseley.
Lord Kingsland: If what was said in paragraph 66 of the judgment of the Court of Appeal was not intended as a reflection either on their innocence or guilt, how can that paragraph possibly be an answer to my noble friend’s question? I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.
7.24 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment(No. 187) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 192; Not-Contents, 109.
Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Bell, L.
Best, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chidgey, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cotter, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
D'Souza, B.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
11 July 2006 : Column 657
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Fritchie, B.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greaves, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laidlaw, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd-Webber, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moser, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwell and Nottingham, Bp.
Steinberg, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teverson, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tonge, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Verma, B.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
11 July 2006 : Column 658
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Leitch, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Trimble, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
7.45 pm
Lord Kingsland moved Amendments Nos. 188 to 190:
- (1) If the conduct disclosed by the
request was committed partly in the United Kingdom, the judge shall not
order the extradition of the person unless it appears in the light of
all the
11 July 2006 : Column 659
- (2) In deciding whether extradition is in
the interests of justice, the judge shall take into account whether the
competent United Kingdom authorities have decided to refrain from
prosecuting the person whose surrender is sought for the conduct
constituting the offence for which extradition is
requested.””
- (1) If the conduct disclosed by the
request was committed partly in the United Kingdom, the judge shall not
order the extradition of the person unless it appears in the light of
all the circumstances that it would be in the interests of justice that
the person should be tried in the category 2 territory.
- (2) In deciding whether extradition is in
the interests of justice, the judge shall take into account whether the
competent United Kingdom authorities have decided to refrain from
prosecuting the person whose surrender is sought for the conduct
constituting the offence for which extradition is
requested.””
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 191 not moved.]
Lord Goodhart moved Amendment No. 191A:
- “(7A) The Secretary of State may
not make an order under subsection (7) designating the United States of
America for the purposes of this section unless there is in force an
agreement with the United States of America pursuant to which an order
for the extradition of persons from the United States of America to the
United Kingdom may be obtained in terms relating to the production of
information and evidence similar to those which apply to extradition
from the United Kingdom to the United States of America after the
designation takes effect.””
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 14, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I beg to move that the House be resumed. In moving the Motion I propose that the House should again consider the Bill in Committee no later than 8.45 pm.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Royal Assent
The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and Measures:
Electoral Administration Act,National Lottery Act,Leicester City Council Act,11 July 2006 : Column 660
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