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House of Lords
Wednesday, 12 July 2006.
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle): the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Plastic Bags
Lord Dubs asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What is their estimate of the number of plastic bags supplied by the retail industry; and what steps they are taking to discourage their use.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker): My Lords, the total number of one-way plastic carrier bags used in the UK is estimated to be between 8 and 10 billion a year. They weigh about 80,000 tonnes. The department is working closely with the Waste and Resources Action Programme and a range of high street retailers to promote reusable bags and to make a further contribution to saving resources and, of course, reducing waste.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer, which moves on a little from the response given by his predecessor a year ago. Does my noble friend agree that we are talking about bags that add significantly to litter, have a damaging effect on marine life and contribute to climate change? If the Government will not put a tax on these bags, as has worked so successfully in Ireland, will my noble friend step up pressure on the retail trade and start educating the public so that we use reusable bags whenever we go shopping?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the Irish example is not all that it appears because there has been an increase in the sale of black bin liners and other such bags to get round the problem of not having bags from the supermarkets. Nevertheless, the culture has changed. Taxation is a matter for the Treasury, because it knows all about these things. I can only say to my noble friend that when I was a young boy and my mother sent me out to run errands and go shopping each week, I took shopping bags with me. I did that every week, every month and every year, and used the same bags.
Baroness Fookes: My Lords, is any attention being given to biodegradable plastic bags, which would deal with some of the problems that have been outlined?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, that is the problem. From researching heavily for this Question, I understand that biodegradable bags contribute to climate change through carbon dioxide emissions, and that is part of the problem. Biodegradable bags are not an easy answer. Sometimes they degrade in the wrong way and
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right to point out that these bags are used for advertising. They are also used as a security measure—I think that he would agree that when you try to decline them, the response is, “We need to put the shopping in a bag for security reasons”. Does he accept that the point of taxing plastic bags would be to encourage behaviour change so that people would take baskets or reusable bags instead?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a seductive point, but this all seems to come down to the view that, as there is a problem, the Government should do something about it. There are alternatives to the Government bringing in a tax, which, as I say, is a matter for the Treasury. But if other forms of pressure were put on by parliamentarians, who can introduce Private Members’ Bills from time to time, they might be able to stop these practices and ensure that the supermarkets are allowed to give away only plain bags. That might change the behaviour of the supermarkets—and it is their behaviour that we need to change. They are giving away 200 million bags a week, which amounts to three bags for every man, woman and child in the country. That is an incredible waste.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, was not the noble Lord’s mother absolutely right in her reuse of these bags? I certainly reuse them to bin kitchen rubbish before putting it into the black liner. What is wrong with that?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, that is two plastic bags causing a problem for the environment. I plead guilty, but I was referring to old-fashioned shopping bags. What is wrong with an old-fashioned shopping bag that lasts a lifetime and does not cause pollution?
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, this may be an issue on a slightly different scale, but what effort is made to recycle the plastic bags used by Parliament in sending out stuff to us? Could one persuade the supermarkets to accept such items along with their own plastic bags as a way of recycling?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, to give them their due, some supermarkets have containers for the disposal of these bags. These bags are packaging and are subject to the regulations regarding plastic packaging, and the supermarkets have to make a contribution towards that. Some local authority recycling sites have provision for such bags. On the other hand, there is plastic and plastic, and sometimes you are told that
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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, my noble friend mentioned black plastic bin liners as being another hazard in this respect. What does he have to say about the fact that many local authorities now refuse to collect refuse unless it is in just such a black plastic bin liner?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, that is an issue. On the other hand, local authorities are now doing far more recycling than they ever did. There is no doubt about that. You can have green boxes and food-waste boxes as well as containers for general household waste, so this is in no way a criticism of local authorities. Tackling the problem of waste is a major issue on a small island such as ours, but we have to tackle it in such a way that we benefit the environment and do not damage it. Whether it is a problem of litter or of plastic bags ending up in the sea as a danger to wildlife, there is no easy solution. Creating less waste is the solution, if you are looking for a single one.
Lord Elton: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a considerable number of transparent plastic bags are used to send out papers from this House to Members and that, when there is a single sheet of paper to go, we get not only a flat plastic bag but a slice of cardboard to keep the paper straight, which must be a waste?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I answer for the Government at this Dispatch Box. I am not answering for the authorities of the House.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am delighted with much of what my noble friend has said; he has stated the case perfectly. He is a very good Minister—but he is a Minister and it is up to the Government to do something. If he can convert what he said and his own personal behaviour to government policy, we would all be happy.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, that was my behaviour when I was a young boy doing what my mother told me. These days I am as guilty as everyone else.
Palace of Westminster: Vehicle Access
3.07 pm
Lord Campbell-Savours asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What proposals are being considered for securing easier vehicular access to the Palace of Westminster via Black Rod’s Garden entrance and the underground car park.
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The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, under phase 3 of the Palace protection project, the bus lane outside the House would be removed. The Corus barriers in front of the House would then be moved outwards, making entry and exit easier, particularly for vehicles with large turning circles. The feasibility of phase 3, including costs, is being studied.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that comprehensive response, although he did not refer to the tunnel joining the underground car park to the House. What proposals are there in place for the introduction of electronic gates, the removal of buses from the car park exit, which block people as they leave the Palace, and the supply of winter and waterproof clothing for police and car park attendants?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the possibility of a pedestrian tunnel linking the Abingdon Street underground car park to the House has been considered before. In connection with the Millbank House project, the matter may be considered by committees again. However, there are no plans to build such a tunnel. Any such project would have considerable financial implications.
As to the provision of electronic gates in the Corus barriers, there are design difficulties with making the Corus barrier gates automatic and considerable problems with the power supply to them. The intention under phase 3, with the extra room provided by the removal of the bus lane, would be to move to swinging gates as opposed to sliding gates, which would assist.
The bus lane outside the end of the Black Rod’s Garden exit, turning left, is a matter for Westminster City Council and Transport for London. We have asked them to consider moving the bus stop further along the road.
Visitor assistants are issued with waterproof and warm clothing in the winter. However, I have no responsibility for what the police do or do not wear.
Lord Renton: My Lords, will the Government bear it in mind that in the interests of security, and the great need for it, it would be better not to have increased vehicular access to the Palace of Westminster?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, it is difficult to know how we would supply the Palace of Westminster with food and drink, and everything else we use—including plastic bags—unless there was vehicular access, and access for Peers as well.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, will the noble Lord the Lord Chairman note that some of us use that bus stop at the end of Black Rod’s Garden? We would not be favourable to it being moved further away from our workplace, thank you very much.
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The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, would not mind moving another 20 or 30 yards along the street.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, are there any long-term plans to close Abingdon Street and Parliament Square to vehicular access?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, in the longer term there is something called the World Squares for All proposal. It has just completed a feasibility study into the future vision for Parliament Square and its environs. Included in this is a series of options, one of which envisages the closure of Abingdon Street and the pedestrianisation of Old Palace Yard. The first phase of the proposal is under discussion; if agreed, this would see the closure of the road on the south side of the square, linking Westminster Abbey to Parliament Square itself.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, bearing in mind the increasing number of your Lordships who have offices over the road, across Abingdon Green, does not the noble Lord the Lord Chairman, agree that the most pressing immediate need is to improve pedestrian safety, particularly at the traffic lights across the main road? All of us who cross there several times a day take our lives in our hands, particularly when pedal cyclists, regrettably, refuse to take notice of the traffic lights.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I remember answering questions about pedal cyclists at this Dispatch Box in a former role. I think we have had enough questions on this; the views of many Members of the House about pedal cyclists are well known. However, I take the noble Lord’s point; if and when we move to phase 3, the crossing controlled by traffic lights would be thoroughly re-examined.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, does the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees expect the closure of Old Palace Yard to precede the completion of House of Lords reform or to come after it?
The Chairman of Committees: I could not possibly say, my Lords.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, the next bus stop to the one we presently use is pretty close, by Lambeth Bridge. Surely the transport people will not allow us to have two bus stops close together.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the problem with the bus stop is that if there is a bus stopped at it—which is, after all, what bus stops are for—vehicles attempting to exit the Lords’ car park into that lane have difficulty getting out. Obviously it would be best if the bus stop could be moved a little further along to ease that problem. I do not know what the regulation distance between bus stops in London is, and I am glad to say that it is not one of my responsibilities.
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The Countess of Mar: My Lords, should we not be encouraging noble Lords to walk a little further, to keep their figures nice and slim?
The Chairman of Committees: Most probably, my Lords, but the noble Countess need not worry on that account.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Lord the Lord Chairman referred to World Squares for All. Does he not agree that one of the proposals is that it should all be pedestrianised in front of the entrance to the House of Lords, which is at present our car park? If so, does he not agree that that would be a thoroughly bad thing?
The Chairman of Committees: No my Lords, I do not necessarily agree. There is no question of us not having vehicular access to the front of the House, but it would be restricted to through traffic. However, all this is a very long way away and not something that we need worry about at the moment.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, can I make it clear that we are not asking for the bus stop to be removed? We are asking for coaches and buses to be prevented from parking at the point where Members leave the parliamentary estate because they are blocking the traffic, not buses stopping at the bus stop.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point. I am not sure about the rules for coaches and other buses that stop on that part of the road, but it is a matter for Westminster City Council and Transport for London and we can raise the issue with them again.
Influenza Pandemic
3.15 pm
The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether, in the event of an outbreak of pandemic influenza, they would designate ministers of religion as key workers.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner): My Lords, the Government recognise that ministers of religion will play an important role during an influenza pandemic. Provisional recommendations for prioritising groups for vaccination have been made in the UK influenza pandemic contingency plan, but no decision to designate entire employment sectors as having a higher priority has yet been made. The needs of ministers of religion will be taken into consideration alongside the claims of other groups.
The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. However, does he not agree that social stability and cohesion are important in dealing responsibly with a
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Lord Warner: My Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate that social cohesion is important in handling a pandemic, and I am sure that the clergy will assist in that area. As I said, no final decisions have been taken on designating employment groups as having priority for vaccination. We will consider carefully the points which he makes with the Faith Communities Consultative Council.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, nobody knows whether such a pandemic of avian influenza will take place or, if there is one, when. But would it not be sensible for the Government to have preparatory talks with non-governmental organisations such as St John Ambulance and the Red Cross and other similar bodies to prepare them for the possibility that they might deliver doses of antiviral drugs and vaccines to endangered communities?
Lord Warner: My Lords, we have ongoing discussions with a wide range of people including the NGOs and public authorities, and we continually update the UK influenza pandemic contingency plan which is available on our website. On antivirals, we will deliver them, centrally, direct to PCTs and GPs.
Earl Howe: My Lords, does the Minister accept that when it comes to antivirals, we need stocks of a sufficient size to cater for some prophylactic use, not just treating infected patients; and that stocks which are currently held or on order will not enable the NHS to do that to any great extent?
Lord Warner: My Lords, we are currently purchasing a sufficient quantity of Tamiflu antiviral to treat 25 per cent of the population falling ill with pandemic influenza, which is what the current plans are based on. That equates to 14.6 million courses. The last of those courses will arrive in August and September. We keep the prophylaxis issue under review. We are studying a paper by Professor Neil Ferguson, who has expressed views on the issue.
Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, does my noble friend feel there is a danger of a member of the public reading this Question and mistakenly believing that ministers of religion are to be involved to administer the last rites?
Lord Warner: My Lords, I think that this is a man with no access to a higher authority to be able to answer that question.
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