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Since this Statement was made in the other place, it has come to light that the statistics quoted on electricity appliances on standby should have referred to electricity used in the home, not electricity generated in the United Kingdom. Arrangements are being made to advise the other place of that clarification.
3.46 pm
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made yesterday in the other place. I am pleased that Her Majesty's Government are, in theory, considering nuclear energy within the mix that we need to protect the security of supply to our small country, especially considering that we on these Benches had to fight the Government during the progress of the Energy Bill in 2004 to keep the nuclear option open. Indeed, one might argue that, welcome though some of the noises in the Statement are, the gist is more, “We’ve thought about it, now we are going to think about it again—a little more—and then consult on it”, or, as my honourable friend in the other place stated yesterday,
Two years ago the Government had the opportunity in primary legislation to address many of the points that they have raised today. Yet I am sure that noble Lords from all sides of the House will remember that the Government resisted amendments that addressed sustainable energy, microgeneration, combined heat and power, energy efficiency and clean-coal technology, to mention just a few—perhaps because it was an election year. As the energy crisis deepens, we know that the Energy Act 2004 was a missed opportunity and that, with the rapid rise in the price of oil and the depleting gas supplies, the matter is now becoming critical. There can be no doubt that the Government agree with us that security of supply and carbon reduction are the two key priorities.
I will not repeat the comments of my honourable friend, who succinctly laid down the many areas in which there is now a consensus, nor shall I ask the questions that he did, unless there was no answer in the other place. However, I want to ask the Minister what consideration has been given to the flexing of muscles by Russia in the energy field and how that may affect our security of supply at the end of the pipeline.
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I started by suggesting that, in theory, the Government seem to be considering nuclear energy. In a well publicised speech, the Prime Minister announced that nuclear power is,
However, in his preface to the energy review report, the Prime Minister spares 10 scant words to the subject of nuclear power. In his Statement in the other place yesterday, repeated by the Minister today, the Secretary of State said that the Government have concluded that new nuclear power stations could make a significant contribution to meeting our energy policy needs. I emphasise the word “could”—not “will” or even “should”. Is this a diminution of what the Prime Minister said about nuclear power being,
It is perfectly clear that, perhaps in deference to their vast body of anti-nuclear supporters, the Government, while offering to grasp the nuclear nettle, have done so with heavily gloved hands.
In the very next paragraph of that Statement, the Government said—I précis it—that it will be for the private sector to fund its full share of the long-term waste management costs. The Secretary of State was pressed by several of his Back Benchers in the other place to explain what the full share was. One honourable Member asked him whether it was 100 per cent. To all those questions, no answers were forthcoming, so, on behalf of the House and in the interests of clarity, I repeat the question: is the full share 100 per cent? A simple yes or no will suffice. I assume that nuclear waste from sources other than nuclear power—for example, medical and industrial waste, and isotopes—will not be charged to the generators.
I am conscious of time in a discussion in which many may want to take part, so I shall add only one more comment. In the Statement, the Minister repeated that we need a stronger obligation on energy companies to provide energy-saving measures. The Secretary of State pointed out that energy companies have a great incentive to sell as much energy as they can. The suggestion is that energy companies should be incentivised to sell more insulating products. It sounds to me like trying to get turkeys to vote for Christmas.
The Prime Minister has referred to energy-saving bulbs. They are first class: they save power and last much longer than ordinary bulbs. But they cost several pounds each, and we obviously need to look for things that are not necessarily beyond the pocket of many people. What energy efficiency regulations will be imposed both on new builds and on conversions of existing properties?
Overall, the Statement poses more questions than it gives answers, because it lacks detail and calls for further consultation. How much more do we need? We welcome the Government’s focus on renewables, particularly for planning procedures. However, what else will they do to achieve those targets? I remind the Minister that the Government have had targets of 10 per cent by 2010, 20 per cent by 2020 and 60 per cent by 2050. Today, 3 to 4 per cent of our energy comes from wind power, so the question is: how will they achieve that? After nine years, six Secretaries of State and three energy reviews, our supply is not secure and carbon emissions continue to rise.
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I started by saying that the Energy Act 2004 was a missed opportunity. This Statement has been, as well. It is, as my honourable friend said in the other place,
I return to the cry so often heard. It is time, in the immortal words of Elvis, for:
3.52 pm
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, although it is rather unusual that we had to have it today. It seems that, through the usual channels, the Conservatives did not ask for this Statement. That is an interesting situation and it is the role of the Lord Speaker to adjudicate in such cases. However, I thank the House authorities for making the Statement available today. It is important, and must be made. Perhaps there is some way in which the usual channels could be changed so that we can get these Statements brought forward.
This is one of the most interesting Statements that I have ever had to talk to. It is the first time that I have been lobbied, as a Front-Bench spokesman, by Members from all sides of the House to make points on one side or the other against their Front Benches. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has made a strident and excellent speech in support of her view on nuclear power, but that strident view is not shared by her leader in another place.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I know that this is timed, but I should like to point out that I did not make a “strident” defence of nuclear. I was asking about the Government’s opinion.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, perhaps a reading of Hansard will elucidate my misconception.
I am split on the Statement, because half of it—up to point 45—is, for somebody who has been fighting for renewable energy, Christmas come early. It is an excellent Statement, setting out many issues that will be welcomed by those fighting climate change and looking carefully at ways of reducing carbon emissions. Some points are very interesting. I find it particularly interesting because, when I took my Renewable Energy Bill through two years ago, the Government had not taken on board the need for some of these measures, but they are now taking them forward with some alacrity.
The issues in which I am particularly interested are smart metering, which should be in every house, microgeneration, eliminating standby, combined heat and power—especially large-scale combined heat and power, which is not utilised at the moment—and energy-saving light bulbs, which should not be underestimated. As has been pointed out, the use of energy-saving light bulbs in this Chamber is saving the House authorities £3,000 a year.
A number of questions have to be asked of this Statement. We on these Benches are against nuclear power for two reasons. The first is waste. Are the
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Planning will be a vexed issue. The report mentions moving to a position where planning considerations can move forward nuclear power stations. I have some sympathy with the Government, because it is ridiculous to have to argue the case for any specific wind farm or power station when these cases have been argued so many times before. However, I believe that the talk of reducing the role of the public will lead to a backlash against nuclear.
My final point is about carbon storage and capture. On page 119, the report states that the Government will look at future schemes on carbon storage and capture. I am surprised that they have not listed the five schemes that are already taking place. I hope that they will consider substantially increasing the amount of money that is available for research and development, as well as implementation, of carbon storage and capture.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, before the Minister replies and before I leave the Chamber, I hope that the House will allow me to clarify the situation of the Lord Speaker regarding Statements. I understand that the House adopted the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Speakership, which did not include any responsibility for the taking and repeating of Statements from another place—that remains the responsibility of the usual channels. The Lord Speaker has responsibility for ruling on Private Notice Questions, but that is a separate issue. I hope that that is helpful. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, would not wish additional powers to accrue to the Lord Speaker.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, I apologise to the Lord Speaker for giving that impression. There was a great deal of confusion. We used the example of the Private Notice Question in relation to the position of the Lord Speaker. I apologise abjectly for giving the impression that the Lord Speaker is involved in Statements.
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3.59 pm
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their contributions, although I thought that the recollection of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, about past policy on renewables, on which his party has been active, somewhat contradicted the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, who seemed to be claiming rather too much enthusiasm for renewables. I cannot recall during the debate—
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I realise that it is not traditional to interrupt the Minister, but, for the sake of clarity and because there is such a difference between us, I beg that we refer to the noble Baroness as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon. That would completely clarify that, as the Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer, I do not support nuclear.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, anyone who has heard the two noble Baronesses discussing energy would never confuse them in any way, shape or form. I did not think that I had to refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, in quite such precise terms because she is the Front Bencher who has just questioned me and it is to her that I am making this response. But I am glad to clarify that point.
I was seeking to say that the party of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, has had a helpful position on renewables in the recent past and to contrast that with the rather lukewarm perspective of the Official Opposition until the changes that we have noticed in recent months. The noble Baroness made reference to the Energy Bill, which was some three or four years ago now, but I cannot recall the Official Opposition Front Bench being greatly to the fore on these issues at that time. Suffice it to say that I welcome her enthusiasm and pressure today, as I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, has said in reiterating his position.
The areas of energy policy where we need to be united as a country are future projections and the work that we have to do. It is welcome that a great deal of this review points to important consensus on many of the proposals—and I include renewals within that framework.
The noble Baroness asked us what we are doing about Russia. As was made fairly clear at the time, the Government do not believe that the nation should express undue anxiety on the question of Russian gas supplies. Russia is destined to be an important supplier to Europe. It is in its interest to supply to Europe. That situation has obtained for more than 40 years over very different regimes in the old Soviet Union and through the Cold War. These pressures on energy supply were subject to pronounced political factors. One of the reasons why we seek to emphasise that we need a full range of contributions to energy production in the country, including the nuclear option, is that, if we do not create a framework within which all potential producers can contribute, we will become dependent on foreign supplies over which we clearly have less control than we have had in recent decades over our own North Sea supplies. The whole House will recognise the change in circumstances
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In the market that we seek to create, in which we expect the possibility of nuclear provision, nuclear producers will be expected to bear the full costs of construction, operation and decommission. I hope that the noble Baroness recognises that, particularly with regard to decommissioning. We also recognise, as the Statement makes quite clear, that her emphasis on energy saving is well placed. A great deal of the Statement is about energy saving, although I want again to correct the point in the Statement about the 7 per cent of electricity wasted through standby devices. That applies to household energy only, not to the vast consumption of energy by other users.
The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, emphasised the issue of carbon storage. He is absolutely right. Breakthrough in that technology could do an enormous amount not only for coal consumption in this country, but for climate change. If we could find a safe, secure and non-carbon-emitting coal usage, that could point the way for China and India, which are huge coal users. That is why that research is so important. We will give full support to the research, but the noble Lord will recognise that these are still early days.
Both opposition Front Benches have acknowledged that the Statement covers the full range of energy options and is of the greatest significance to the nation. On that basis, and as the response in the other place indicated, we recognise that this is a common problem that must be solved through common solutions.
4.06 pm
Lord Tugendhat: My Lords, does the Minister accept that if this country is to meet its energy emission targets, have security of supply and continue to grow at a satisfactory rate, nuclear power will play a vital part? When all is said and done about renewables, there are still many problems and uncertainties to overcome. Nuclear power has been tried and proven in France and elsewhere. Will he undertake that the treatment of the nuclear programme will in no way be disadvantageous compared to other forms of energy?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we intend to create market conditions in which there are incentives to potential nuclear producers. The background is that nuclear production comprises 20 per cent of our present electricity generation. Of course we are pursuing renewable options with great vigour, but to suggest that through them we could readily bridge that gap within the necessary timescale is to ask a very great deal. That is why it is very likely that nuclear production will play its part in the energy mix.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan: My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the document, which is a helpful
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the latter point is significant and important for the Government. Fuel poverty creates the greatest distress within families. That is why we set a target. My noble friend is right: the substantial increase in fuel prices in recent years has made that situation more difficult, but I reassure him that the elimination of fuel poverty is an important priority for the Government and we will take steps to make progress in that respect.
My noble friend also asked about the climate change levy. European law does not allow us to exempt nuclear power from energy taxes, although it allows some options to exempt renewable sources of energy from energy taxation. The UK applies these exemptions to combined heat and power and to wind power, but it will be recognised that, when we create the market into which nuclear bids will be made, there will be full understanding of the contours of that market. I emphasise that there is no form of subsidy for nuclear power.
Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, although I very much welcome the underlying principles of the Statement, can the Minister clarify a point that was made yesterday at Question Time when I intervened and stated my declared interest in carbon emissions from the manufacture of steel conductor rails? He may have mistakenly misled the House by saying that the manufacture of steel conductor rails was more energy-efficient than that of aluminium conductor rails. I have approached the manufacturers of aluminium conductor rails, who advised me that they are 25 per cent cheaper to make and more energy-efficient. Perhaps I can give him the figures that will come through to me this afternoon.
The only indication that daylight saving is not practical comes from the house-building side—that leaving the lights on makes it impractical. I have spoken to the author of the paper, which he wrote in 1990, and he is prepared to reconsider the figures and to include heating and the industrial side. However, no study has been made of the effects of daylight saving and why it cannot reduce the total amount of electricity used in this country by 1 per cent as it does in the United States. Will the Minister therefore look at this again and ask the Government to encourage a study similar to those being conducted in the United States?
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I apologise to the House if I produced an inadequate reply yesterday. The only thing that I can do, in all honesty, is to write to him in detail about this, but I attempted yesterday to indicate that we had looked at his representation and, as I understood it, found that his proposal did not greatly reduce overall carbon emissions, which was the point at stake. The best thing that I can offer to do is to discuss this with him. I will certainly write to him.
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