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House of Lords
Thursday, 13 July 2006.
The House met at eleven of the clock: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.
European Court of Human Rights
Lord Russell-Johnston asked Her Majesty’s Government:
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Triesman): My Lords, the United Kingdom is a firm supporter of the European Court of Human Rights. Guaranteeing its effectiveness is a priority for the United Kingdom. The review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, the ratification of Protocol 14 and the report of the Wise Persons Group should all help in alleviating the problems of the court. There will be financial implications, but we will seek to meet these through savings in the overall Council of Europe budget.
Lord Russell-Johnston: My Lords, the Minister will, I am sure, know that, as of this morning, there were 85,000 outstanding cases with the European Court. That represents a crisis. I urge the Minister not to follow the course of action that he has outlined of raiding the already inadequate Council of Europe budget to provide the necessary resources for the court to do its work. Does the Minister agree that both bodies do an enormously valuable job and that one should not suffer for the other?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, in working through all the issues of European budgets in the last set of negotiations in the settlement, we were clear that there ought to be a realistic constraint on the spending of European institutions. We were at the forefront of the efforts to do that, and we are committed to zero real spending on the Council of the Europe. None the less, in 2006 it amounted to a shade under £20 million. We think that there are grounds for believing that there are credible savings in that budget.
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the European Court of Human Rights plays a vital role in justice in the United Kingdom because it is the final arbiter on the interpretation of the European Convention on Human Rights? In those circumstances, does the Minister agree that it is essential to have improved funding and that the Government should press for a new protocol to the European convention that would make it easier to sift out the considerable number of unjustifiable cases?
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Lord Triesman: My Lords, I have nothing to add to the point about the financing. I have answered the House on that, whether my Answer satisfied noble Lords or not, but our view on zero real growth in the funding of this budget head should not suggest that we do not think that the court plays a valuable role as the final arbiter or that we are not committed to seeing it deal properly and effectively with the kind of cases that are brought before it. It is the primary protector of human rights in Europe. We will certainly take our part in discussions on any measures that help it to behave efficiently and make sure that the cases that come before it are the critical ones.
Lord Slynn of Hadley: My Lords, does the Minister consider that the structural changes introduced some years ago, in particular the abolition of the commission, have been an advantage or a disadvantage from a financial point of view and from the point of view of the working and efficiency of the European Court of Human Rights?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, it is hard to imagine that it has been entirely an advantage because, as has been said, the number of cases backed up is considerable. Without question, there are efficiencies to be achieved, but it is also true that some of those who have recently come within the overview of the court—for example, from Russia—have produced a vast number of cases that they could never have brought under the old regime and, arguably, through domestic courts in Russia at present. That has produced a huge increase. Perhaps the court and the whole system will need to adjust to those changes. Throwing more money at it is unlikely to be the solution.
Crown Prosecution Service: Victims of Crime
11.11 am
Lord Soley asked Her Majesty’s Government:
The Attorney-General (Lord Goldsmith): My Lords, prosecutors have an essential responsibility in putting victims at the heart of the criminal justice system. A number of steps have been taken to make that a reality. The prosecutors’ pledge makes a series of specific commitments about the way in which prosecutors communicate with victims of crime throughout the life of a case. A new Crown Prosecution Service leaflet explains how it will deliver the pledge, and other prosecuting authorities have introduced similar commitments.
Lord Soley: My Lords, I welcome that pledge and the way that we are giving more attention to the victims of crime, because often the courts seem to be there for lawyers, magistrates, judges and others but not for the victims. However, will my noble and learned
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Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that anti-social behaviour affects a large number of people. The most serious crimes are very important, but they do not directly affect so many. I agree that it is important to do all that we can to deal with victims of that crime. Many of the initiatives that we have introduced—direct communication with victims, witness care units, guidelines on acceptance of pleas and the victims’ code—take account of those issues. However, I will bear in mind what he said about those people.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, the shareholders of Enron could claim to be victims of crime. Will the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General tell us why the Crown Prosecution Service chose not to prosecute the NatWest Three and to have them extradited to the US to be prosecuted there?
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, the position, which has been explained before, is that a decision was made by United States prosecutors to investigate the matter. The allegation—I emphasise that it is an allegation and that nothing has been proved—was that there had been a conspiracy between three British bankers and two co-conspirators who were Enron executives to take a sum of money from Enron, which is alleged to be a total of $30 million, part of which went into the pockets of those three.
There was never any complaint in this country to the SFO about that case. The United States investigated and produced evidence in relation to the case and asked for extradition. The British courts were then asked to review the decision by the SFO not to prosecute. They looked at that in detail and rejected the allegations. Therefore, the extradition goes ahead.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, one group of people who really are victims of crime are women who suffer from domestic violence. My noble and learned friend will be aware of the improvements that have been made, certainly since 1997, to counter it, but could he indicate what further support and help will be given to local police forces to counter what is still a very serious problem? It is a problem that occurred very seriously throughout the period of the World Cup.
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I do not know the statistics about the last point, but it would not entirely surprise me if that were right. I agree with my noble friend that this is an area on which we need to concentrate. A great deal has been done to gear up our response to domestic violence. Local police forces have been very much involved in that work. There are special co-ordinators who deal with domestic violence, and the courts take a different approach to it. I shall be happy to discuss with my noble friend outside the Chamber the particular steps that she would like to be taken, what more she would like to be done and whether that is possible.
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Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord has taken the opportunity to talk very fully on the extradited three, could he tell us whether they are going to get bail and when we might know a decision on that?
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I did not take the opportunity. I was asked a question and thought that it was right for me to answer it—I had no intention of coming forward on that otherwise. I hope that noble Lords will think that I have at least attempted while on my feet to deal with an issue that, I know, is of public concern.
As the Prime Minister announced in PMQs yesterday, I have spoken with my counterpart in the United States to ask what their approach to bail is, and he has confirmed to me that US prosecutors will not oppose bail for the three individuals. There is the question of conditions for bail, which will have to be set and which will be for the court to set or for them to agree. That is all that I can tell the noble Lord at this stage. I hope that the House will think it helpful that I have given that information.
Lord Snape: My Lords, will my noble and learned friend assure us not only that the rights of the victim will be taken into consideration but that proper and adequate punishment will be administered to those who are guilty of anti-social behaviour, which bothers so many people in this country? Can he assure us that the Government will not follow the Conservative Party down the philosophy of hugging a hoodie but rather will lock them up for misbehaviour, if that is what they deserve?
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, everybody who is guilty of misbehaviour should be considered for an appropriate sanction if they have committed a criminal offence. I think that it is enormously important that this Government have recognised that anti-social behaviour, although it often simply concerns offences at the low end of the criminal justice calendar, can be hugely distressful to people and make people’s lives an absolute misery. The respect action plan that the Government have produced and in which prosecutors play a key part is essential to that. One thing that we have done is to have specialist anti-social behaviour prosecutors who help with others to deal with the challenge to which my noble friend refers.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, does the Crown Prosecution Service have instructions to supervise or control victim impact statements that are read out in court or, as is intended, victims speaking openly in court? The noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General will appreciate that anything that is said in court is subject to absolute privilege and may be reported in the press. I have come across some outrageous and untruthful things that were said in victim impact statements in order to influence the judge to pass a more severe sentence.
Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I recognise a bit of a conflict here. First, it is important that the impact of an offence on a victim is understood by the court—not the victim’s views on what the sentence should be but the impact on the victim. I see a huge number of
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Imerys: Job Losses
11.20 am
Lord Berkeley asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What action they intend to take to mitigate the loss of 800 jobs in Devon and Cornwall announced on 4 July by the industrial minerals group Imerys.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Sainsbury of Turville): My Lords, the South West of England Regional Development Agency has deployed an area action force to ensure that all available support for the employees concerned is co-ordinated effectively by public sector agencies. In the longer term, the priorities for Objective 1 funding and investment by the RDA in Cornwall will continue to have a strong focus on developing alternative, higher-value and sustainable job opportunities for the clay communities.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. It is heartening to hear of the action that the Government have already taken. I am sure that my noble friend shares my pleasure that Imerys is offering to contribute £25 million to diversification and to finding other jobs for the people who may be made redundant. Does he agree that the key issue in Cornwall is probably diversification into other industries, one of which must surely be to get rid of some of the spoil and secondary aggregates that blot the landscape around St Austell? I am sure that he will agree that that needs capital investment. Will the Government re-examine the convergence fund and Cornwall’s Objective 1 status with a view to the Treasury possibly contributing a higher percentage than at present to match the funding from Brussels?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, one of the issues that the area action force is looking at is land and premises and whether alternative uses can be made of them. EU structural funds will be part of any action that is taken to improve the situation. Cornwall’s Objective 1 status has already attracted £328 million in European funding and, together with matched funding, a total of £878 million will go into the economy of Cornwall and the Scilly Isles. Cornwall will be eligible for funding from 2007 from the EU convergence programme. We need to see how those funds are used before we take any further steps.
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Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the 800 redundancies referred to in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, are part of a much wider picture of increasing unemployment? Will he remind the House of the figure for total unemployment three years ago and the figure today?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, this is a specific situation, which is due to a number of factors coming together. First, world energy prices are higher and, secondly, the low value of the dollar makes imports from Brazil much cheaper and more competitive. It is a specific situation that is not due to macroeconomic circumstances in the UK. I do not have to hand the figures that the noble Lord asked for, but I shall certainly write to him and let him have them.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, given that the wonderful tourist attraction of the Eden Project developed as a result of the area’s history of extractive industries, what more can the Minister do to build on the strengths of the tourism industry in Cornwall and Devon to supply jobs for people in those areas?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, tourism offers a real possibility of increasing opportunities in Cornwall. It is exactly those issues that the Government’s action task force will be looking at to see where opportunities lie.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, none of the European funding to which the Minister referred that goes to Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly is available to the areas of Devon affected by the job losses. That is compounded by the fact that the DTI has just published its assisted area status zones, removing west Devon from the assisted area status zone so that the area will not be able to receive that European funding. Will the Minister undertake to re-examine the position of west Devon, given the underlying statistics, which are compounded by the DTI’s decision?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, the main problem is, in fact, in Cornwall. In Devon, there will be a reduction in the number of jobs at Lee Moor from 120 to 50. In the greater scheme of things, that is not a reason for making adjustments to the plan. Of course, Devon will be eligible for support under the regional competitiveness and employment objective.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government need to look beyond just tourism for Cornwall? Tourism provides jobs, but they are generally low-paid and seasonal. People in Cornwall want regular and well paid employment so that they can hold their head up like the rest of the population in this country.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, my remarks about tourism were simply to state that that is one of the opportunities available. Of course, we want to look at other opportunities—in particular, as I said in my Answer, higher value-added jobs, so that the jobs that have been lost can be replaced with equally good jobs, if not better ones with better long-term prospects.
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Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that in the past five years Cornwall has seen a major transformation? There is no doubt about that. The commitment given by this Government on Objective 1, Combined Universities in Cornwall, the minimum wage and a whole raft of things have been of considerable help. Nevertheless, there is not just this loss of 700 jobs in Cornwall and of 85 in Devon; there is also an effect on the peripheral, small businesses. Cornwall has no big businesses and it is very different from the Midlands in that regard. Therefore, does my noble friend agree that the principles of Objective 1 should continue? The money needs to be there, because it is not possible to say to employees, “There is a job down the road”. While I believe that employment in Cornwall has increased and that all the indicators are going in the right direction, this number of job losses in a very rural area is a major body blow. We have time—just over a year—before the redundancies take place, but does my noble friend agree that it is essential that something different is done in Cornwall, because it is a different situation?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I agree that this is a serious situation and that the job losses will be keenly felt in Cornwall. As my noble friend said, we have one advantage—the job losses will not take place until the end of 2007, so we have some time to plan for this. It is essential that we use the action task force and EU structural funds to do everything that we can to find replacement jobs for those that have been lost.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that slowness and lack of variety of transport is one reason why it is so difficult to get more work into Cornwall? I am taking a train from Bodmin Parkway that leaves at 9-something but does not arrive in London until nearly 3 o’clock.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I totally agree. In many of these situations, transport is a key part of regional regeneration. We must make certain that you can get both in and out of Cornwall easily and, in particular, that Cornwall is linked into the international transport system, so that, if you are trying to attract high-tech businesses that have a global market, which is increasingly the situation, it is easy to get into the region and out. In other circumstances, Cornwall is well placed to build up its trade with Europe.
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