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Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kinnock, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Murphy, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Quin, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
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2.36 pm
Clause 156 [English and Welsh text of legislation]:
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 15:
The noble Lord said: In moving AmendmentNo. 15, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 16 to 25, which are minor, technical amendments. Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 ensure that an order made under Clause 156 applies to the interpretation of any word in the Welsh language in subordinate legislation made by Welsh Ministers or made under an Assembly measure or Act. As drafted, it would only apply to subordinate legislation made by Welsh Ministers.
Amendment No. 17clarifies an uncertainty about the timing of the transfer of functions from the old Assembly to Welsh Ministers. It makes it clear that, in general, the provisions of the Bill come into force, including relevant amendments to and repeals of other enactments, when functions of the old Assembly transfer to Welsh Ministers.
Amendment No. 18 amends the Statutory Instruments Act 1946 to provide a procedure for the revocation of a statutory instrument made jointly by Welsh Ministers and a Minister of the Crown which is annulled by the Assembly. Her Majesty, by Order in Council, would revoke such an instrument. Amendment No. 19 amends the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 to give Assembly Members the same protection as MPs and MSPs in relation to breach of copyright during proceedings. Amendment No. 20replaces references to the Assembly with references to Welsh Ministers in the Official Secrets Act 1989.
Amendments Nos. 21 and 26repeal Section 154(3)(a) of the Government of Wales Act 1998 to reflect the fact that it will cease to have effect after this Bill comes into force. Amendment No. 22removes a potential lacuna to ensure that any functions vested in the old Assembly during the gap between the May 2007 election and the appointment of the First Minister can be exercised by the former Ministers. Although unlikely, this might be necessary in an emergency.
Amendment No. 23clarifies the provisions which ensure that the effect of Orders in Council under Section 22 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 will be preserved when the Welsh Ministers assume the Executive functions of the current Assembly. Amendments Nos. 24 and 25remove any doubt about the procedure governing subordinate legislation made by Welsh Ministers to implement Community law. It is the procedure set out in Clause 59 and not the procedure in Schedule 11. I beg to move.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, we are very grateful to the noble Lord for having given us prior notice of these technical amendments. We have been able to study them and we are very happy to approve them. I take this opportunity to thank both Ministers who have helped us all during the passage of the Bill. I also say a special thank you to those who have helped me on the Opposition Front Bench, namely my noble friends Lord Henley, Lord Hunt of Wirral,
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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, we on these Benches would like add to what has been said. I thank my noble friends Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Roberts of Llandudno for their strong support in conducting the Bill through the House. I would particularly like to thank the Ministers, the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Evans, and also the noble Baroness who, I remember, participated at one stage earlier in the Bill, for the patient way in which they have dealt with the Bill and the tolerance they have shown towards a number of things that have been said during proceedings on the Bill.
I also thank the Bill team. We have just seen the amendments that the Minister has just brought forward. From what I can see, all of them are essential in terms of drafting, and that means that a great deal of thorough work has been carried out by the Bill team, which we very much appreciate.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 16:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, before moving Amendments Nos. 16 to 25, I should like to thank everyone for their great co-operation. In spite of the fact that we lost a number of votes, the whole exercise was conducted in a very good spirit. As I did at the end of Report, I again thank everyone, particularly those in the Box, for the great support they have given to my noble friend Lord Davies and me. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 91, line 12, leave out from “Act” to end of line 23 and insert “so far as relating to functions of the Welsh Ministers, the First Minister, the Counsel General or the Assembly Commission,
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 10 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendments Nos. 18 to 21:
(2) In the definition of “the Crown”, after “the Scottish Administration” insert “, of the Welsh Assembly Government”.
(3) In the definition of “parliamentary proceedings”, after “European Parliament” insert “and Assembly proceedings within the meaning of section 1(5) of the Government of WalesAct 2006”.”
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On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 11 [Transitional provisions]:
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendments Nos. 22 to 25:
Page 170, line 29, leave out from “functions” to “held” in line 32 and insert “of the Assembly constituted by the Government of Wales Act 1998, other than functions to which paragraph 24 applies, are exercisable-
Page 172, line 15, leave out “, subject to sub-paragraph (3), any other enactment” and insert “any other enactment apart from section 155(2) of that Act”
“(9) This paragraph does not apply if the Welsh function was transferred as a result of the operation of paragraph 30(2)(b) (see paragraph 28 and section 59).”
“(6) This paragraph does not apply if the function was transferred as a result of the operation of paragraph 30(2)(b) (see paragraph 28 and section 59).”
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 12 [Repeals and revocations]:
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 26:
Page 201, line 3, column 2, leave out from “(3),” to “(b)” in line 5 and insert “paragraph (a) and, in paragraph”
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Evans of Temple Guiting.)
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with amendments.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
2.42 pm
Lord Smith of Clifton moved Amendment No. 1:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 1, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 2 to 6.
The amendment concerns the annual canvass of the Northern Ireland electorate for the purposes of the electoral register. The Bill proposes a canvass every 10 years. We think that is too long a period and our amendments are designed to reduce the intervals to every five years. We referred to this issue in Grand Committee and I have nothing further to add to what
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Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Clifton. As the noble Lord has already said, we had a long debate in Committee and we also believe that 10 years is far too long. I also agree with the Government that one year is far too short because it is expensive and impractical. If I remember right, we felt at the Committee stage that some form of compromise between one year and 10 years would be the right way to go. The amendments seem to cover the right number of election periods and would allow the electoral officer time to get his or her feet under the table and to get a grip of the electorate and the register. Because of the considerable movement of the electorate in Northern Ireland—with students growing up and going abroad, people coming in, families moving and so on, it is a very mobile electorate—we feel that 10 years is much too long and five years is probably an appropriate compromise.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, as I will probably say quite a few times today, as I said in Grand Committee where these amendments were also tabled, under the new arrangements, the Chief Election Officer’s enhanced data sharing powers will replace the canvass as the central means by which he will ensure the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the Northern Ireland register.
The provision to hold the canvass every tenth year is the backstop to underpin confidence and provide a safeguard for these new arrangements. It will no longer, however, provide the substantive means of refreshing the register, which will be done on an ongoing basis under the new arrangements set out under Clause 7. So it is not, as one might think from the brief speeches, that we are simply abolishing registration and doing nothing about it because the new arrangements are set out quite clearly under Clause 7. Therefore no advantage would be gained from the canvass being held on a more regular basis, only an unnecessary expenditure of resources. In addition, the clause makes provision for a canvass to be held in any year if the Chief Elections Officer makes a recommendation to the Secretary of State by 15 April that year and the Secretary of State is satisfied that the public interest requires the canvass.
Clause 3 also makes clear that the Government’s intention is that there will be a canvass in 2010, by which point we hope that the new arrangements will be fully embedded and everyone will be able to see that. However, should the elections officer feel that a canvass is not necessary at that time in order for him to meet the relevant registration objectives—perhaps on the basis that he feels the register is comprehensive and accurate and would not be improved significantly by the canvass—he would be able to recommend to the Secretary of State that a canvass should not take place in 2010. In the case of such a recommendation—and only in that case—the Secretary of State will be able to make an order to remove the requirement for a canvass
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Canvasses are resource intensive, both in labour and money, and it is only right that the Chief Elections Officer should be able to decide how his resources would be best deployed in determining whether or not a canvass is necessary in 2010—which, of course, is only four years after the final annual canvass as planned under the legislation. In addition, Clause 3 also makes it clear that if there is no canvass in 2010 and one has not been held before the end of 2015, one must be held in 2016, which would of course be 10 years after the final annual canvass proposed under the legislation presently before your Lordships’ House.
We think that all the mechanisms in place and the access to information set out in the Bill, but not subject to these amendments, which were debated at some length in Grand Committee, are such that we are confident that the Chief Elections Officer can carry out a comprehensive canvass and keep it up to date using all the means at his or her disposal. This would include checking on the movements of people—the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, said it is a moving population—which have to be recorded for all kinds of purposes. Whether it is rents for landlords, local authority services and other such matters, the elections officer will have access to that information for that purpose. Of course, he will not have access to medical records and other such matters, but he or she will have access to information to create an accurate register in Northern Ireland and then have the means to keep it up to date. Therefore we do not think these amendments are required.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating very much what he said in Grand Committee. There has clearly been no shift in the Government’s opinion in this regard. This will put a very great responsibility on the electoral registration officer and we must have faith in him or her that they will be as diligent as they need to be. We would prefer a formal review and canvass every five years. However, in view of what the Minister has said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 2 to 6 not moved.]
Clause 12 [Extension of categories of permissible donors]:
Lord Smith of Clifton moved Amendment No. 7:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we are not in principle against the extension of the categories listed in the provision, but we are very worried about how it will work in practice. If the Government cannot give us any specific assurance about the channels of communication set up between the Electoral Commission here and agencies in the Republic or about the conditions which Irish citizens will have to fulfil before they can donate to a Northern Ireland party, we will have to reserve our position.
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At this stage, this is a probing amendment. We want to hear from the Minister how the proposal will operate in practice. I would be grateful if he could expand on this more than he did in Grand Committee. I beg to move.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, in speaking to Amendment No. 8 in my name, I shall also speak to the Liberal Democrat Amendment No. 7. This is an important issue. At the end of the Committee stage, I certainly did not feel that the Government had any idea how they were going to manage this. The Minister was very keen to assure us that the laws were sufficient safeguards and that our regulations would remain consistent with those of the Republic of Ireland. My information, in private discussions with Irish Government Members, does not encourage me to think that way at all—rather the reverse.
A number of serious offences can be committed by a party in this area, including submitting an inaccurate form and facilitating donations from impermissible donors. People unconnected with the party can also commit offences. That is all fairly familiar to us. It is an offence to withhold information from a party about a possible illegal donation.
Can the Minister explain exactly who will have responsibility for investigating all these possibilities in Northern Ireland and abroad and when many of them will take place? Can he explain exactly who will be making sure that political funds come from legitimate sources, not bank robberies, illegal donations or extortion money? Is the Electoral Commission to be given wide-ranging new powers to travel abroad to ensure that the people involved are who they claim to be, or will that role be delegated to the Irish authorities or the authorities of the country in which the donor is resident?
The recent controversy over party fundraising merely serves to highlight how important it is to maintain complete transparency about where parties get their money from. Little more needs to be said. I do not believe that the Government have a grip on this or that they understand how they will manage this. I would like to hear it from the Minister.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord has just raised a point that he did not raise in Committee. It is not a feature of the current controversy over donations to political parties. He actually spoke about where the donor gets the money from. That is a new issue; it has not been raised before. I cannot see how that can legitimately be put on the agenda. Where the parties get their money from is one thing, but asking where the donor got the money from is a different kettle of fish altogether. I regret that I do not have a lot more to say than I said in Grand Committee.
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