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Amendment No. 8 requires the Secretary of State to report on the operation of the provisions set out in Chapter 6, but the operation of these provisions is a matter for the Electoral Commission. The commission is an independent body, set up by Parliament, and it would not be appropriate to require the Secretary of State to report in this way to the House on the
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I appreciate the thrust of both amendments and all those relating to donations in Northern Ireland, which we debated at some length in Grand Committee. We have considered the argument since 22 June when we debated these issues. We think that we are right to resist the amendments for the reasons I outlined then, which I will briefly reiterate.
I would welcome noble Lords accepting that the Bill is a big step towards ending the current situation with regard to political donations in Northern Ireland. The present situation is untenable, unfair, undemocratic and hidden. The Bill is a massive step towards changing that process. As usual, when you give the Opposition a yard, they ask for a mile. That is what we used to do in our 18 years in opposition, of course but it would be nice if people accepted that the Bill is a big step forward.
As was mentioned in Committee, the ending of the disapplication period is, as the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, said, eagerly anticipated. Under these provisions, the end is in sight. Following the end of disapplication, Northern Ireland political parties and regulated donees will continue to be able to accept donations from Irish citizens and other Irish bodies which can currently donate to Irish parties in the Republic. That is the Government’s policy; it represents a considerable narrowing of the regime as it exists, while ensuring that the special place of Ireland in the political life of Northern Ireland will continue to be respected.
We would like to stress that the precise conditions setting out the eligibility criteria for donating to Northern Ireland parties will be specified in legislation made in this Parliament. That is one of the reasons why I do not have the details with me today; we will be debating them at some time in the future.
It is worth repeating that legislation is not the end of the matter. This House will have the opportunity to debate the proposals in considerable detail. The new Chapter 6 inserted in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 by Clause 12 makes it clear that the prescribed conditions which additional categories of donors will have to meet can be prescribed only by the Secretary of State following consultation with the Electoral Commission. Such an order would have to be laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament here at Westminster. The conditions that these additional categories of donors will have to comply with will therefore be fully and publicly debated in both Houses at the time they are made. That is a big step forward from the current position—donations may come from anywhere and anyone in the world, and there is no obligation on parties to disclose them.
It is scandalous that Northern Ireland has been allowed this period of time, compared with Great Britain. We have to regulate the situation. As Northern Ireland moves towards a normal civic society, it must start to work within normal civic rules, and one of
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Under the new arrangements, donations to Northern Ireland parties, including those from Irish donors, will be subject to regulation and verification by the Electoral Commission until the end of the transitional period, which we hope will be in 2010. Any impermissible donations will be required to be returned to the donor, or forfeited.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, have there been any discussions between the Northern Ireland Office and the appropriate Ministers in the south about precisely how this will be managed?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I apologise, but I do not have the precise answer at the moment. I should like to deal with a couple of other points that I missed.
I was asked about setting out the conditions for eligibility in the Bill as to how this will work in practice. I do not have the details yet; they willcome to the House in the form of secondary legislation. We need to consult the Electoral Commission and the Irish Government further. We have been consulting them to get as far as we have with this legislation, but we do not have all the i’s dotted and the t’s crossed. We have to consult further to determine the conditions for eligibility, which need to be fair, effective and enforceable. It is no good having something that looks okay; that would be a sop. The Electoral Commission must be able to enforce the situation and the political parties must understand how these arrangements will operate on the ground. I do not know the details because I was not involved in this when I was a direct rule Minister. It was not part of my day job. I know that discussions have taken place and that we need further discussions. There have been ongoing discussions between government officials and officials from the Government of the Irish Republic. To the best of my knowledge, Ministers have not been involved. Things may have been discussed at the highest level, but those ongoing discussions between officials have been to try to arrive at a solution which will then be put to the Ministers of both Administrations for approval before they come to Parliament.
3 pm
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I am grateful for that further elucidation from the Minister, but what we are considering today is premature. We would have liked to have had the “i”s dotted and the “t”s crossed so that we could debate the detail now in the context of this Bill. That is what makes this unsatisfactory.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, that is unreasonable. The noble Lord has not acknowledged that the legislation is a big step forward. It is in the style of enabling legislation. We need to get this on to the statute book to get to the detail. We could not put that kind of detail into the legislation. We need to come forward with proposals that will be introduced to Parliament.
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It is not as though the House is being asked to approve this legislation which then sets up a brand new system of transparency, fairness, enforceability and a tightening of the rules. We need the other legislation. There will be another opportunity—probably more than one—for the House to debate these matters in detail. It would be fair to treat this as enabling legislation to take us forward. Implicit in this legislation is a large degree of narrowing of the sources of funds that can come to the political parties in Northern Ireland.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Lord that the present system of donations for political parties in Northern Ireland—external and foreign donations—is scandalous and requires tightening up. However, we need clarification. Are we talking simply about Irish people donating to political parties in Northern Ireland? If that is so, it is discriminatory, because in practice funds will go only to the SDLP and Sinn Fein—the minority, Irish parties in Northern Ireland—not to the majority parties in Northern Ireland, the Ulster Unionist Party and the Democratic Unionist Party.
Secondly, if this facility continues to be extended to Irish people to donate funds to Northern Ireland parties, will the same facility exist for Commonwealth citizens to do so? Only then will there be equality so that the unionist parties will benefit equally, because this provision seems to give funds only to the Irish nationalist parties in Northern Ireland.
Also, why are the Government discussing electoral affairs in the United Kingdom with a foreign Government?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I understand that, under the rules governing Report, I am not required to answer those questions. However, I want to co-operate, so I will try to answer them. If the noble Lord is concerned about discussions between the United Kingdom Government and the Government of the Republic over this matter, he will be more worried after 24 November if the Assembly does not return, because discussions will deepen. Economic forces are at work that are causing more co-operation between north and south than ever before, leaving aside the political considerations.
The rules are that Irish citizens anywhere in the world can donate to Irish political parties; therefore, donations can come from abroad. Company legislation is much more constrained. You cannot put a brass plate on the Dublin office of a foreign company and use that as a basis for making donations. You have to have a significant commercial enterprise in the Republic to be able to donate. The noble Lord has no grounds
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Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, that argument is facile. This is not an economic matter; it is about electoral law in the United Kingdom. The Government are negotiating with a foreign country about what electoral law in the United Kingdom should be. I accept that in theory it means that money can go to any political party in Northern Ireland, but coming from Northern Ireland, I know that Irish funding for political parties will go only to the SDLP and Sinn Fein/IRA; it will not go to the unionist parties.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I gently remind the House that we are on Report. Nobody except the mover of the amendment is able to speak after the Minister has sat down.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation. We have just had an illustration of how fraught the politics of Northern Ireland are. Although I welcome the thrust of this Bill and the point that it is making—I said that at the beginning—we want to know more about the technical details. The Minister said that this was an enabling provision and that we would have an opportunity to discuss the details through secondary legislation. The Minister knows full well my view that recourse to secondary legislation on the scale to which Northern Ireland has been subjected raises serious concerns. With secondary legislation, we have to take it or leave it, which is a real problem. However, reluctantly in the light of what the Minister has said, I will not press this amendment and I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 9:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am afraid that I am going a stage further than the previous debate in proposing to leave out Clauses 12 and 13. Our Government have failed to explain how these proposals will be seriously implemented and managed. What the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, said is relevant, because I understand that even the Irish Government have grave concerns about the feasibility of accepting political donations from the vast pool of people worldwide who hold Irish citizenship. It is far too wide. However, it is not only the practical implementation of allowing foreign donations that I object to, but the continuing attitude—and in fairness the Minister made this point—that Northern Ireland is inherently unable ever to move on from its unfortunate past and develop a political system that accepts all the restraints and obligations of those that operate elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Northern Irish politics should not be subjected to abnormalities, exceptions and fudges any longer than it has to.
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There is no doubt that what is proposed is better than the current situation, but that does not mean that it is an acceptable end point. These proposals are another sign of the Government’s continuing failure to raise their expectations of what the Northern Irish people have the right to expect. Nowhere in the Belfast agreement was the idea that political funding should be allowed to remain a grey area, pandering to Sinn Fein’s refusal to behave within the constraints expected of normal democratic political parties. It is in principle wrong that non-nationals should be able to fund ideologies and actions of which they will never have to suffer the consequences. Northern Ireland politics should be decided by the people of Northern Ireland and the Minister and everyone else in your Lordships’ House have said that again and again. The principle of self-determination was stated repeatedly in the Belfast agreement, and that is what this Government should be working towards. Instead, these proposals drive a coach and horses through that principle, with scant regard for the long-term effect on the long and sometimes painful road that Northern Ireland must go down towards political normalisation. I beg to move.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, I want to underline that I consider this a most discriminatory measure, and Her Majesty's Government should hang their head in shame, because it favours Irish nationalismin practice and discriminates against the British majority in Northern Ireland. Extending these facilities to Irish citizens and people who claim Irish nationality across the world means that, in practice, it will support only those parties that wish to subvert Northern Ireland’s position in the United Kingdom. We are preparing a measure that supports the financing of parties that wish to destroy the United Kingdom.
I am very keen that Commonwealth citizens should have the same facilities, but why do they not have the same possibilities as Irish people across the world? Is it because Spain has successfully applied to the European Court of Justice to ban the right of1 million Commonwealth citizens in the United Kingdom to vote in European elections?
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, pressed the amendment, we would support it.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall try to give a bit more explanation, although we debated this in Grand Committee. That is not an excuse for not discussing this matter, as noble Lords have every right to bring it back on Report.
I should tell the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, that, as I said in my original response, the Bill takes account of the special factors on the island of Ireland. We are not denying that; it is not being slipped in by the back door. It is open to anybody in the United Kingdom—England, Scotland and Wales—if they are on the electoral register, to donate to the political parties in Northern Ireland. The unionists in Northern Ireland are not limited to
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The debate which we have just had on Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 goes to the reasoning behind these clauses, and I shall have to repeat some of those points. This is a big step forward. At present, notwithstanding the complaints of the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, anybody in the world can get money into the Northern Ireland political parties secretly, without anything being published or known about it. This Bill stops that. It does not go all the way, but it is a big step forward.
When the disapplication period is over, by 2010, Northern Ireland parties and the donees will continue to be able to accept donations from Irish citizens and other Irish bodies who are legally able to donate to Irish parties—that being the Republic. This is a narrowing of the regime. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, about the inability to amend secondary legislation that comes before this House, but I re-emphasise that it does not come out of the blue. It will come following consultation.
I have got something completely wrong here—if this is the case, I do not think it is fair. You have to be on the Northern Ireland electoral register to donate to Northern Ireland parties, but that cannot be the case if you can donate from abroad. If you are eligible to donate in the Republic, you are eligible to donate in the north. That is the difference. There is a restriction, but it applies equally to nationalist and unionist, because it is up to people where they give their money.
3.15 pm
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, the Minister is quite right. This is a vast improvement compared with what applies in England, Scotland and Wales. People throughout the world can send donations to political parties in Northern Ireland, but the very bad news for Northern Ireland is that Her Majesty's Government in restricting this facility are now limiting it to Irish citizens and companies and so on to send funds to political parties in Northern Ireland. I am saying, bluntly, that that is totally discriminatory. You are helping to finance Irish nationalist movements within Northern Ireland at the expense of the majority British unionist community. They should havethe same facility to get funding from British Commonwealth citizens, and you are denying them that right. It is total discrimination.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I accept the narrowing. However, I do not have a note on this, because specified classification of Commonwealth citizens did not come up in Grand Committee. I cannot answer the point today, but there will be another opportunity at Third Reading, so we can have a look at this next week. I do not know about the Commonwealth
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I realise that this is like a red rag to a bull, but there are restrictions in the Republic, which is why we in the UK must discuss this with the Government of the Republic to ensure that we get the rules right and that they are fair, transparent and enforceable. We must ensure that brass-plate companies cannot be used as a means of feeding money into Northern Ireland political parties of whatever ilk, because there would be ways round it. That is why we must have discussions. I suspect that the Irish Republic Government would probably take the same view, and that they would rather brass-plate companies could not be used to get money to political parties.
The point is that the conditions will be in separate legislation. As I was about to say before I had to dig myself out of a hole, the legislation will come to this House not out of the blue but after consultation with the Electoral Commission and all the political parties—it is not as though this is done simply with the technocrats in the Electoral Commission. All the political parties in Northern Ireland, of which there are quite a few, will have the opportunity for consultation on this issue before the order gets near the House. It is not as though this is the end of the matter. It is a significant step forward under the current arrangements. As I said, it takes account of the special historical—but what the noble Lord would consider unacceptable—relations between the parties in Northern Ireland. That is the state of play. It is the Government’s policy following the arrangements that we have made and the discussions that we have had. If I can keep going for about another 30 seconds I shall be given an important note, which I hope will set the context even further.
This Bill is not the end of the matter; it is enabling. The Electoral Commission is the guardian of the rules on funding. We must make sure that back-door routes are not made available. The political parties in Northern Ireland have to run candidates to be funded. They cannot be brass-plate political parties as well as brass-plate companies. Locks must be built in to ensure that that money cannot filter across the Irish Sea to political parties in Great Britain.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. If I can buy him a few more minutes, I am not sure that it will be helpful because, although I sympathise with him, his briefing on this amendment is below the normal quality we expect from him. While we are not allowed to blame officials, they appear to be at sixes and sevens. That does not inspire great confidence that we should trust the Government to do the right thing. Therefore, if the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, presses the amendment, we shall support him.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is a good job that the Lords procedure allows us to debate amendments on Third Reading. I shall not be able to answer the points that have been made. I am now told that the second note I received was wrong. I am not sure
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