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I do not want to speak on the basis that executive Government know all; I am not saying that. I am with noble Lords on this; so is the Northern Ireland team—Peter Hain and the rest of them. The present arrangements for degrees of scrutiny under direct rule are unsatisfactory, and we must find another solution. However, we are not in an isolated area; we are a few months away—and the House has passed the legislation—from trying to get up and running an Assembly that would carry out that legislation,. It is not a question of simply saying that we are in a period where nothing is going to happen. We want to focus on getting the Assembly up, not by threats or blackmail but, if you like, by a bit of cajoling and some encouragement, and not too much slagging them off; they do not like that. Northern Ireland people deserve better from Northern Ireland politicians than what they have been getting, and they know that.
The money for the Assembly Members is a token, but the Assembly will disappear on the 25th; the Assembly will be gone. The status quo will not simply carry on. There is the Review of Public Administration, and the changes to local government do affect central government in Northern Ireland; they are bound to. The idea is to move powers from the Government of Northern Ireland in Belfast to local councils. That means that we will be looking at the ministries and the way in which they are structured. If anyone is thinking, “Oh, in a few
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We are pushing forward changes in the health service and in local government. We have said that we will push the reform programme forward, and we are not going to ease off on that. Indeed, the Secretary of State has said that he will speed it up if the Assembly is not there. That is our position, and that is why we concentrate and focus exclusively on getting plan A, which is the best option, of a devolved Administration back in Northern Ireland, and at the same time admitting that we are mindful of the deficiencies of the present system and admitting that if the Assembly is not back we cannot carry on as we have been for the past eight—or indeed the past 30-odd—years in direct rule.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, I have a point of elucidation. We did have, let’s face it, a plan B following the meeting in Armagh city of the two Prime Ministers. I do not believe that Her Majesty’s Government recognise how badly that message went down across Northern Ireland. If the Government do have a plan B that was announced in Armagh, why are they not prepared to consider an alternative plan B, which would be a greater democratic system for the administration and government of Northern Ireland?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, for the reasons that I explained. If we did that in great detail now, there are too many people who would say, “Thanks very much; there is direct rule and there is a plan B; we do not need an Assembly. Why bother?”. We believe the best option is an Assembly in Northern Ireland with Northern Ireland politicians.
I repeat, finally, that whatever may have been said about it, the Prime Minister did not have a plan B on that day and there is no plan B today. We have got plan A, and that is what we are concentrating on.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I accept what the noble Lord has said. I accept that there is no plan B and I accept that the Government do not want a plan B. But, as I said in my opening remarks, I do not see this amendment as providing a plan B. I support the Government totally in their wish to see Stormont back in being and back at work. I see the amendment as using this miscellaneous provisions Bill—an opportunity which is often difficult to find for major legislation for Northern Ireland—as a means of ensuring that I do not have to come back here at the end of October, or whenever we get back after conferences and so on, with clearly no agreement in sight and having to go back to the old grind. Soon we will have the Northern Ireland budget coming up for the next year. I do not want to go through that; I do not want to see all of that again. I want a more efficient, more democratic, more open process of governing Northern Ireland. I beg leave to take the opinion of the House.
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4.21 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment(No. 12) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 148; Not-Contents, 113.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Blaker, L.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cotter, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eames, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Kalms, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Parkinson, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
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Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tope, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Verma, B.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Ford, B.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hylton, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Judd, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kinnock, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
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Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to say something about the amendment not being moved. I said at the start ofthe last debate that I had considerable sympathy with the views expressed about the current Order in Council process. We have obviously listened to the words and the votes of your Lordships’ House expressed today and on previous occasions and the Government will reflect carefully and urgently on them. We have said that we do not want to focus on a plan B and that will continue to be the case. However, I am advised that the amendment needs some more work, which we will urgently look at. In other words, we shall have to come back at Third Reading with another amendment. I will not hide behind the fact that the amendment is technically deficient and would not work; I am not saying that, but in order to give sense and purpose to what is accepted, some work will have to be done in the next few days.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the Minister for the way that he has taken what has happened and note what he is going to do.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, from these Benches, I endorse that sentiment. If we could work something out, it would be to the good of Northern Ireland.
- House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes before five o’clock.
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