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Over the years, integrated schools have proved themselves many times over. They are academically successful, with a significantly higher GCSE average than other all-ability schools in Northern Ireland, and they are extremely popular. In the face of falling enrolment numbers, already mentioned several times, integrated schools have to turn away 500 pupils a year. They contribute immeasurably to the all-important task of bringing the communities of Northern Ireland together.
When I started the Ocean youth club in 1979, we set about bringing together young people from different walks of life. Youngsters would come on board, each thinking that the other was from a different world, whether it was a Catholic looking at a Prod or a Prod looking at a Catholic. Then, 10 days later, they would be walking hand in hand down the quay. That is living together and creating understanding, even though, in that case, it was only for about a week.
However, integrated schools cannot be imposed on a community. It is the parents who seek such an option for their children and remain active in the governing of schools who make that success possible. The fact that so many parents actively reject the religious divisions that have defined Northern Ireland community relations for so long and send their children to be taught in an environment that
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Integrated schools are a crucial tool to allow the next generation to be educated in a growing atmosphere of cross-community co-operation and friendship. But you cannot force people to change their ideologies, nor can you expect children to move on from beliefs that their community has propounded for generations without the full and active support of their parents. Of course, I would like more integrated schools to be set up, but that drive must come from the parents themselves. I hope, therefore, that this Government continue to make grants available for the foundation of integrated schools as soon as there is sufficient support to maintain them. The over-subscription that we see today suggests that more could be done to meet that demand.
However, I cannot support the idea that children should be forced to integrate beyond what their parents are comfortable with. It is in the family that children learn their values and prejudices, not only in schools. Integration must be fully supported by the wider community before a school can have a chance of succeeding. It is naïve and optimistic to believe that you can parachute into a troubled area an oasis of fraternity and love.
The Conservative Party has always stood for parental choice. I hope that the Government will continue to offer the choice of an integrated schooling to those who are willing to go down that route, but we cannot ignore the majority of parents who wish to send their children to other varieties of schools—Catholic, Protestant, academic and selective, or other types. Parents should decide how their children should be educated and the Government’s role—going back to the opening speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Blood—is to give them those options and to support their choice.
9.22 pm
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I consider myself incredibly lucky as Northern Ireland spokesman in this House for the Government to have such a debate, and for the participants in the debate. I do not think that I have heard a word that I have disagreed with from any speaker—and that is not playing one side against the other. I was particularly struck by the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, in respect of parents, and I shall say one or two things about parental choice.
In some ways, this is about parental choice—that is very important. But the idea that I would personally want to leave the future of Northern Ireland to parents who actually, today, create measurable sectarian attitudes in children aged three is something that I am not too keen on. The root cause of the problem is not the children but the parents. There are measurable sectarian attitudes in children aged three, and they got those not from the schools but from their homes and their parents. That is what we need to have a real look at.
I have a prepared text and I am going to use it, but I shall take as my text for the speech a letter that I
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“I found myself in the bizarre position of being an atheist chair of governors with a Roman Catholic headteacher at our only local primary school in rural Devon—which was Church of England voluntary controlled. Time to remove religion from education so we can get on with the job in hand without distraction”.
That was a letter from a Mr Mark Beer in Umberleigh, Devon. There is a little melting pot there. I know nothing about the school—he did not name it—but the idea that these things could actually be the norm, because that is what is created and no one will argue one way or the other, says a lot about what is wrong with going down a silo approach to education. Segregation stops after secondary education. I do not think that there are any segregated further education or higher education colleges. So there is no argument; it can be done.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, in higher education, Stranmillis College and St Mary’s College are deeply segregated.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, yes, I was referring not to teacher training colleges but to the norm of further education colleges at post 16 and the two universities. No one would say that further education colleges ought to be run on religious or sectarian grounds. Yet at 16 or 17, when children come out of the sectarian sectors and go on to further education, they meet people from the other community probably for the first time. I have met youngsters myself who have never until the age of 16 or 17 met, spoken with or been in close proximity to someone from the other community. It is unbelievable to those of us who are not familiar with the detail of Northern Ireland. I cannot help but contrast this Chamber tonight with last Monday evening, when, with others—I will not call them the Northern Ireland windbags, because that would be very unfair, and they would be after me for the future—we did not have a wide-ranging debate. I know that there is an argument about the Orders in Council, but the real time to come and debate education in Northern Ireland for 90 minutes was tonight. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, hit the nail on the head: they are not there, except for the participants in the debate. One asks why.
It is true that the Government have a statutory duty to encourage and facilitate the development of integrated education—that is to say, education at school of Protestant or Roman Catholic pupils. It is obvious to say it, given the debate tonight. It is a vision that will benefit all areas of life, in all sections of the population of Northern Ireland. The Government take their responsibility seriously. We recognise that integrated education is an important building block towards creating conditions necessary for long-term peace and stability in Northern Ireland. It is actually crucial and fundamental.
Over the financial year 2006-07, we will provide the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education
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The Department of Education has operated a twin-track approach to the development of integrated education, establishing new schools if they meet the relevant criteria and allowing existing schools to transform to integrated status where a majority of parents agree to it. The latter is certainly recognised as a more cost-effective method, because it obviously does not involve major capital investment, though it does involve some. That is not to say that it is perfect all the way down the line. I am told that there are two integrated schools in Northern Ireland with no pupils from the other, minority religion. So this is not a straightforward or a perfect scenario. You do not open the school and have parents from the other religion come rushing in. But we offer practical assistance with the policy of transformation in a number of ways.
The Department of Education published and distributed to every school in Northern Ireland the booklet Transformation: An Information Pack for Schools. It is updated annually and contains practical information on the process of transformation, including the legal requirements on balloting parents and the development process. The booklet is available in hard copy or on the department’s website. The Department of Education receives an annual budget to help schools with the transformation process. The budget for 2006-07 is some £278,000. This assists schools in the initial stages of the transformation process and with the employment of a teacher from the minority community to assist with religious education.
In March 2006, the Government provided the Integrated Education Fund with an additional three-quarters of a million pounds for the delivery of an agreed plan. The main emphasis of the approved plan is to develop opportunities for existing schools to transform to integrated status and to provide additional support for transformed schools. It is to be hoped that delivery of the plan proves fruitful for the sector.
When discussing the level of support offered for integrated education by the Government, I have to dispute the claims of the integrated sector about the number of children who do not receive a place in an integrated school each year. Figures ranging from 600
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The appropriate figure for assessing the popularity of the integrated sector is the number of parents who want their children to enter that sector and for whom it is the first choice. That is what parental choice is about. It is inappropriate to then add parents who expressed first choice for what I will call a sectarian sector and second choice for the integrated sector. In this case, 95 per cent to 100 per cent of first choice places are available. You cannot include preferences in the calculation of parents who expressed a higher preference for a non-integrated school. As I say, for the current school year and the previous two, places were available in the integrated sector for the children of 95 per cent to 100 per cent of parents who expressed a first preference for that sector. Therefore, there is no shortfall of places in the post-primary sector.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I know that my noble friend is short of time, but the majority of parents have no integrated school within reach. Therefore, the figures that my noble friend mentions are for a limited part of Northern Ireland only. Most parents do not have that choice.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, if enough parents demanded such a choice, and the relevant schools were three or four times oversubscribed, the earth would have to move to meet the choice because that is what we would be required to do. There would be a clear parental choice. There would be uproar if people could not get their kids into their first choice of school. The polls on integrated education do not always reflect what actually happens when parents choose schools for their own children.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has a point. It is an unrealistic choice for many parents unless they are prepared to bus their children to, or board them in, other areas. Both statistics need looking at again.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, they may need looking at again, but I think that the result would be the same. We want parents to have a genuine choice, but if they do not use that choice, we cannot measure the demand. It is all very well taking vox pop polls on what people prefer when they subsequently choose something else. As I have said, 95 per cent to 100 per cent of parents who express a first choice for integrated education get their choice.
Baroness Blood: My Lords, I find what the Minister is saying incredible. This year, we had three groups of parents who wanted to start a school in their area for almost 80 children, and they were
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Lord Rooker: My Lords, I take what my noble friend is saying, and we can look further into the figures. As I said, decisions on those individual schools were made earlier in the year and they were fully explained at the time. That does not mean that the Government do not support or are not in favour of integrated education. I want to complete what I have to say, because I want to answer the points that have been legitimately raised about the surplus places.
The figures used have been correct. Demographics tell us that the number of children is falling. There are currently 50,000 surplus school places. Pupil numbers are set to decline by a further 30,000 in the next 10 years, so there will be a surplus of 80,000, which is quite unsustainable. As the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said, it costs almost twice as much to educate in this way, and we do not spend the money on education; we are spending it on empty places and doubling up on everything. Unless we address the consequences of falling school rolls, low vocational skills, vacant school places and limited access to a broad curriculum, we will be incapable of delivering the skills and standards necessary for Northern Ireland to have a prosperous future.
The segregation of the school system comes at a high price, particularly at a time of surplus capacity and falling rolls, which make it more difficult. We need to explore new ways of schooling which involve sharing facilities. With respect, I say to my noble friend that I agree with every word that she said, but it is about a lot more than just sharing sports halls. If there is a way to break the segregation, it has to be making better use of resources. If I remember right—I am speaking from memory now—80 primary schools in Northern Ireland have fewer than 45 pupils. You cannot provide a rounded education with such small schools; something has to give.
Answers are coming from Sir George Bain—I hope—who was asked by the Secretary of State early in the year to examine the education system and funding in Northern Ireland. He will focus on the strategic planning and organisation of the estate, taking into account curriculum changes and falling rolls and how best to meet the duty to encourage and facilitate integrated education. The remit of the review will envelop the Government’s commitments under A Shared Future, which sets out the Government’s policy and strategic framework for good relations in Northern Ireland. A Shared Future recognises the balance to be struck between parental choice and the additional costs and potential diseconomies that the diversity of provision generates. In improving school planning, we must tackle the challenges of addressing parental choice and falling
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While we remain committed to the duty to encourage and facilitate integrated education, we recognise that integrated education is one important model, and there will be other ways of sharing. Our ultimate aim must be to ensure that we are integrating education provision across the board more effectively
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Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, Northern Ireland business expands to fill the space available. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- House adjourned at twenty-one minutes before ten o’clock.
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