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In another place, the Government provided two reasons for us giving way on this issue, and the Minister repeated them this afternoon. His first reason was that the timetable made it essential that the measure go forward this afternoon, so that Royal Assent could be obtained before we rose. Ministers should never advance that argument, because they establish the timetable by which Bills are brought before Parliament; if it were so vital that the legislation should receive Royal Assent, they should have arranged for the Bill to come before both Houses in enough time for the debate to be carried through to its proper conclusion. There seem to be only two possible alternative reasons for their having got us into this situation: that it was intentional, so that they could blackmail the House and say, “You simply have to agree or we won’t get Royal Assent”; or that it was the result of incompetence. I will leave it to noble Lords to decide which, but I do not think it worthy of Ministers to treat Parliament in this way.
The second main argument advanced in another place, and again by the Minister this afternoon, was about the manifesto commitment and the Salisbury convention. I have spoken on the future of the Salisbury convention not just in debates on the Bill, but when we considered procedural matters and in a separate debate. The whole issue has been well set out in a major paper, which is in the Library. It is clear that we will have to give further consideration to the Salisbury convention, which, after all, had its origins in a wholly different situation. I am particularly concerned about its application when we are dealing with manifesto commitments on electoral matters. Manifestos are usually lengthy documents not read by the electorate, except sixth formers under instruction on how the constitution works, and it seems a dangerous principle to advance that we are bound in Parliament to observe the will of the elected Government because they mentioned a matter in a manifesto. That would enable a political party to change the electoral system to its advantage and prevent Parliament blocking the proposal.
The change proposed on this occasion may not be felt to be of such significance that Parliament and this House should stand and fight, but one can imagine circumstances in which a proposal to change the electoral system should be resisted by this House. I want to record that I do not think that this occasion establishes a precedent. We should not accept that the Salisbury convention and manifesto commitments always bind this House to accept any proposal by Government to change electoral arrangements. That would be wholly improper.
As my noble friend said, it was also argued that all the political parties in the Assembly had already acted on the basis that the Bill would pass therefore there was no point in going back on it at present, or at least that it would cause a good deal of inconvenience to do so. But the political parties have noted that the Government were determined to get their way on this
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I was fascinated to hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, because, having read the debates in another place, my understanding was that the Liberal Democrats and the Government had reached a deal on the Bill: because of the need to get it through without further delay, and the concessions mentioned by the Minister, the Liberal Democrats would not stand and fight on this issue. However, the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said that the Bill was very unsatisfactory and repeated many of the arguments advanced by his party in earlier debates. After all, his party, along with all the opposition parties, voted against the measure in the Welsh Assembly—as they did earlier in our proceedings.
I find it bizarre that the Liberal Democrats decided not to stand and fight on this issue. It makes it impossible for the rest of us to do so, because we all know that, without their support, there would be no chance of winning the vote and sending the amended legislation back to another place. The Liberal Democrats have sold a pass on it; that is a great pity.
Having made those points, I accept that we must now agree to this highly unsatisfactory measure. I do not withdraw a single word of the criticisms that I uttered against it on previous occasions; they have been well summed up by my noble friend on the Front Bench.
I shall make only two further comments. First, as I do not intend to speak again this afternoon, I take this opportunity to thank both noble Lords who have spoken for the Government on this matter for the patience and courtesy with which they have responded to our thorough examination of this Bill. I do not apologise for that thorough examination; that is the job of this House, and we have obtained some notable improvements.
I wish the Assembly every good fortune in the period ahead and hope that it serves the people of Wales well. I hope that we do not come to regret any part of this Bill, and that we can feel that at least we have taken a step forward for the benefit of the Welsh people.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I agreed with so much of what the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said that I was sorry that towards the end of his contribution he chose to attack the Liberal Democrats for inconsistency. We have been consistent on devolution since the first part of the 20th century and we have done everything in our power to advance that cause. When one considers the noble Lord’s approach to devolution, given that he opposed it when he was Secretary of State, if the right reverend Prelate will forgive me, Damascus and conversion come to mind.
Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I merely observe that St Paul’s contribution after his conversion was pretty notable.
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Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, it was almost as notable as the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, to this debate.
We do not like the concept of the abolition of dual candidacy. When the Government of Wales Bill first came before this House—I was the main spokesman for my party on it—we of course proposed proportional representation by the single transferable vote method, which the Richard commission said was the way forward, but we accepted the regional list as a measure that was heading in the right direction. At that time—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will recall this—we were all of the view that Members of the Welsh Assembly would be indistinguishable whether they were regional list members or constituency members: they would all be regarded as Members of the Welsh Assembly who were doing their best for Wales.
It is unhappily the case that the electoral arithmetic has worked out so that Labour Members are constituency members and members of other parties—very many but by no means all of them—are regional members. They all started on a level playing field when the Assembly came into being and each of them had a reputation to make. One feels that behind the abolition of dual candidacy is the fear of Welsh Labour constituency members of the Assembly—certainly the weaker ones—that those regional list members who have made their reputation will oust them from their seats. As the noble Lords, Lord Roberts and Lord Crickhowell, and my noble friend Lord Livsey said, the Welsh Labour Party has played purely a political game with the electoral arrangements. It is not right that we should have this presented to us, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said a moment ago, as something that we must accept because it was tucked into the Welsh part of the Labour manifesto during the previous election.
The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has now been converted to speak against the Salisbury convention. He may recall, as other noble Lords will do, that the very first act of the leader of my party in this House in the Queen’s Speech debate following the election was to say that we did not regard ourselves as ever having been bound by the Salisbury convention. We were not party to it in 1946; the conditions had completely changed and we would not accept it for a moment as an argument. The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, made the very important point that the danger lies in electoral politics. Although this deals with the Welsh Assembly, it is a very short step to interfering with how Westminster representatives are elected by tucking a similar proposal somewhere in the small print of a manifesto and relying on it at a later stage in relation to this House.
This party will abstain on this Motion because we want the Bill to be enacted but that does not for a moment minimise our hostility to the concept of the amendment—that is, the concept that dual candidacy is to be abolished—and it does not mean that we accept for a moment the validity of the Salisbury convention.
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Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, spoke about the Government’s motivation having a somewhat partisan spirit. I should like to correct him on at least one matter: not, I hope, in a partisan spirit but in the spirit of historical accuracy. He said that his party was from the beginning of the previous century in favour of devolution. That clearly prompts the question why, when his party had the ability to do something about this—that is, when it was in power before the First World War—it did nothing.
I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, paid tribute to the generosity of the Government’s response to the debate. There clearly has been a remarkable debate and very valuable changes have been made in the course of it. I am also pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is at last here: he speaks far better in his own right than when others purport to speak on his behalf. We should always listen with great respect to what is said by the Assembly.
On dual candidacy, the assumption is that we have so much political talent in Wales that it does not matter if those who lose out in marginal seats are out of power for at least four years. But our pool of talent is not so great that we can afford to dispense with their talent, and I guess that there will be a danger of unintended consequences in that people will be reluctant to take on marginal seats on the constituency basis.
I follow the Government for a number of reasons. First, this was a manifesto commitment—not to be followed slavishly but to be followed in cases such as this. Secondly, this House should be reluctant to interpose its view on election matters in relation to the elected Chamber. Thirdly, we have gone over this course so often that I think it gives democracy a bad name when losers become winners. Therefore, I shall support the Government today without hesitation.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked why, at the beginning of the last century, the Liberal Party did not move ahead with Welsh home rule. He may remember the great dispute regarding Irish home rule, which took precedence. The first measure was proposed in 1913 by ET John, a Liberal MP who later joined the Labour Party. But then we had the First World War and, after that, the Liberal Party was not in any position to move forward. However, I should like to know when the Conservative Party has ever proposed a devolution measure for a Parliament or Assembly for Wales. I do not recall that happening. I can go through manifestos and candidates’ election addresses but there will be no mention of it at all.
Does the Salisbury convention tie the Government and the Conservative Party to supporting not only measures in the UK-wide manifesto but also those in Welsh or Scottish manifestos? As we are talking about an election to a United Kingdom Parliament, I suggest that the only commitments to which any party is bound are those in a UK manifesto, not those in a
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“In Wales we will develop democratic devolution by creating a stronger Assembly with enhanced legislative powers and a reformed structure and electoral system to make the exercise of Assembly responsibilities clearer and more accountable to the public”.
That is what this Government were elected on. They were elected not on a Welsh but on a United Kingdom manifesto, and I suggest that the Government look again at that particular proposal. They and we are totally committed to accepting the specific point that was only in the Welsh manifesto. For the future, I think that we should ask whom the convention does and does not bind.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I know that my noble friend on the Front Bench is getting restive—I detect that from the back of his neck. He obviously wants to get on with the debate, but perhaps he will allow me to say two or three words as I have been involved in this exercise for a considerable time.
I think that, however one looks at it, on the whole one should support the structure proposed in the Bill. It gives increased legislative competence to the Assembly and that is the object of the exercise. The whole thrust of the report of the commission which I had the honour to chair was that more power needed to be devolved to Cardiff and that it should have the power to legislate directly in certain areas.
The Government have come up with a set of proposals which, I am bound to say, I find complicated and complex. But if they can do what the Government claim they can, that will go a very long way towards implementing exactly what the commission recommended and was in favour of. The danger in the proposed procedures is that the relationship between the request by the Assembly and its consideration by Westminster is still unclear. I do not know what that relationship will be. How will it work? One has to hope that, although the devil is in the detail, perhaps there is a bit of virtue as well, and that once it has bedded down and been given the opportunity to work, one will achieve the Government’s objective of greater legislative competence in Cardiff.
I would not claim that this is a good Bill; I could not do that because it does not do what we are recommending. When the White Paper first came out, I said that in all the circumstances I would give the Government a B+; I would not give them an A. That is still my position. It is a respectable B+; in university terms, it is a respectable 2:1. It is not quite a first, but it steps in the right direction, so for that reason we should support it.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this 35-minute debate—or 30 minutes, taking off my introduction. I do not plan to answer the points made. However, I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, that the Labour Party does not have a UK manifesto. We have one for England, Wales and Scotland. The commitment to reform the
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I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, for his generous remarks, but not so grateful to him for introducing the debate on the Salisbury convention, which looked as though it would dominate the discussion. It was good to hear from my noble friend Lord Richard, the chairman of the committee that produced the Richard report. With my academic record, a B+ would have been a brilliant result. I beg to move.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
“(3A) The provision included in the standing orders in compliance with subsection (3) must (so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so) secure that not more than one of the members of the Assembly Commission (other than the Presiding Officer) belongs to any one political group.”
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move Motion B standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Evans of Temple Guiting that this House do not insist on its Amendment No. 4, to which the Commons have disagreed, but do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 4A in lieu. I shall also speak to Motion C.
The amendments concern the composition of the Assembly Commission and Assembly committees in general. As a Government, we have always recognised that having a proper political balance is critical to the future working of the Assembly, as evidenced by the provisions in Clause 29, which I shall come to shortly. We do not contest the principle that the Assembly Commission should be made up of members from different political groups. Therefore, I am pleased to be able to respond to the call to enshrine this in the Bill by offering our amendment in lieu of Amendment No. 4.
It provides that standing orders should require that, as far as is reasonably practicable, no two members of the commission should be drawn from the same political group. This does not include the presiding officer who will chair the Assembly Commission. The amendment simply clarifies the intended effect of your Lordships’ amendment and provides for situations that may arise in the future when in theory there may be fewer than four political groups in the Assembly.
Amendment No. 5 seeks to replace Clause 29 with a new requirement to ensure that Assembly committees have regard to party balance. The amendment shows that all sides of the House are in agreement on the key issue that committees of the new Assembly should be politically balanced. That has always been the Governmment’s intention.
As I stressed on Report, the amendment does not address the situation where agreement is not reached on the composition of committees. The aim is for the Assembly to reach agreement on the size and make-up
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That said, the Government recognise the concern that has been expressed in your Lordships’ House and in the other place during the passage of the Bill; namely, that the provision in the Bill relating to the use of the d’Hondt formula should be explicitly worded as a fallback provision. One or two speeches were made against the entire concept, but I wish to emphasis again that the d’Hondt formula is merely a mathematical formula for resolving difficulties on the allocation of places.
The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said:
“If using the d'Hondt system is a fall-back, why do not the Government set out primarily that the numbers of a committee and its make up are to be determined by agreement, and that in the event of disagreement the formula is to apply? ”.—[Official Report, 19/4/06; col. 1136.]
The noble Lord, Lord Henley, speaking for the Official Opposition, expressed concern that Clause 29 as drafted required the Assembly to contract out rather than contract in to d’Hondt. He wanted greater emphasis on the use of the formula as a fallback. That is what this amendment delivers, and I believe that with this amendment, noble Lords will be reassured that that is expressly the intention.
The other concern expressed during debates on this clause was that it disadvantages smaller parties and independent Members. In response, I point out that this amendment reinstates the provisions to ensure that independent Members and those belonging to smaller parties—I want to give that assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, who is in his place—are entitled to a place on a committee, subject to there being enough committee places to make that possible. We believe that that is crucial to safeguard the interests of independent Members and those who represent smaller political parties.
I hope that in listening to both your Lordships’ House and the other place, we have satisfied the concerns expressed while ensuring that the Bill gives direction as to what should happen in the event that parties within the Assembly fail to reach a consensus.
There were two concerns. The first is what to do about smaller parties and how to recognise that with four main parties, very small committees raise problems. The d’Hondt formula works perfectly with a committee of 10 and the present composition of the Assembly. It provides exactly the right proportions between the parties. The difficulty would be if the Assembly set up smaller committees. However, the Assembly will be mindful that, like all parliamentary assemblies, it wants to guarantee that its committees properly and fairly reflect its composition.
Secondly, there was rather more suspicion about the d’Hondt formula than was justified. It is merely a mathematical formula very widely used across the known democratic world to resolve the technical
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I hope that noble Lords will recognise that our amendments resolve that position and meet the two main objections raised at previous stages.
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