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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, we on these Benches welcome the Statement as a small but very important step on the road to dealing
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One of the most interesting recommendationsand government responses comes under recommendation 7, which states:
That is one of the biggest items in the whole report. First, there is a fair amount of such material and, secondly, there is an enormous budget implication well beyond what the Government have already costed. Will the Minister repeat the estimated cost of disposing of nuclear waste as envisaged by CoRWM? If recommendation 7 is taken on board to include all those materials, the spent plutonium will have to be moved in budgetary terms from an asset column, as it is now classified by the Government, to a cost column, with considerable implications for budgeting. I hope that safety issues will be paramount rather than accountant-speak—being worried about the shifting of figures, which will have to happen.
The industry has been subject to constant change. Only yesterday, the formation of the new nuclear research body and the break-up of British Nuclear Fuels Ltd were announced. Reorganisation undoubtedly brings difficulties. The Government have accepted that there is an ever decreasing pool of expertise in this area. Although the Statement talks of independence, it will be very hard to get people who are truly independent, in the sense that they are likely to have worked for a long time in the industry. The democratic process will have to bring the checks and balances of that independence into being. I certainly hope we will have the time to examine that in this House.
The creation of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, which we debated in your Lordships’ House during consideration of the Energy Act 2004, was a very positive move, and I hope that, in tandem with the other changes announced today, it will add impetus to dealing with the legacy of waste. None of this Statement can be taken as encouraging us to think that a future nuclear-build programme, in the unlikely event that we get there in our lifetimes, will be any more possible or likely until all these enormous questions about waste are dealt with.
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Finally, I hope that the House will now welcome CoRWM’s work more than it did in a memorable debate in which I was probably the only person in your Lordships’ House, apart from the Minister, to defend its work, because the committee involved had produced such a damning report on it. I hope that we can be a little more welcoming today.
3.51 pm
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am grateful for the responses from noble colleagues. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, said that the problem has been around for 30 years, and so have the solutions. I am not sure whether that is literally correct, but he is generally correct that many people have considered the problem.
Regardless of whether there is an issue between CoRWM and the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, the Government must agree the plans. The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority was set up under the Energy Act, so there are constraints. Indeed, we are considering the Government’s arrangements, as the Statement said. We need a public discussion on the matter. I do not want to go over the past, because things can be misunderstood, but we also need a clear and transparent audit trail, exactly as the CoRWM process has shown. CoRWM has produced a first-class report with a first-class audit trail, and there can be no criticism of that. In some ways, that is where the answer lies in relation to the new facility siting process being divorced from the Nirex process. We must discuss how voluntarism and partnership can be linked to the scientific assessment of sites. The Nirex site list is, however, disregarded. That is what was meant by the new process being divorced from the Nirex process. One cannot wipe out what happened, but we now have a different arrangement. There is no question of going over the Nirex sites.
I cannot answer the financial question about possible start-up costs, but point to evidence from other countries—I listed six, seven, or eight of them; I forget the exact number. We do not want to look as though we will fail. The Statement was made only today. I would not be surprised if the odd local authority had not made inquiries, because that is the way in which things will be done. We must set up a process in 2007, as we have said, so that we can assess the voluntary approach. We want an assessment and a solution based on partnership and a willingness to participate. As I have said, international experience indicates that this approach is the one that is most likely to succeed. So I do not envisage failure at the moment. It is true that the costs are large. We are talking about huge sums of money, as nobleLords know better than I do. The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, funded by the Government, deals with historic waste. Any new operators must share the costs of their work.
The Written Statement yesterday is, in a way, quite separate from today’s Statement, and I am not briefed to answer questions about it. Moreover, as always, in this narrow and specialist area as in other areas where science is involved, there will be debates about the
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On the question about cost implications if plutonium is declared a waste material, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority will consider this as part of its strategy and planning, which will require government approval. It goes without saying that the Government are accountable to Parliament. Parliament would be involved in terms of scrutinising government actions. The planning I have referred to will include carrying out further important work to determine the costs. To be honest, I cannot go down the road of costs. All kinds of figures are bandied about and these costs will run over decades. Whatever ballpark figure one puts out, whether it is hundreds of millions or indeed billions, the costs will stretch over an indeterminate number of decades that neither I nor anyone else can begin to predict at present. Further work has got to be done.
Finally, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, we are determined to proceed on this and to secure as wide a consensus and partnership as possible. Previous approaches have failed, and that is no criticism of either Government. But the fact is that it is now time for action and we have to make some progress. The voluntary partnership approach seems to work elsewhere in the world and there is no real reason why it should not work here.
3.57 pm
Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, perhaps I may advise the Minister that my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith is absolutely right about the time span of 30 years. Some 27 years ago I had ministerial responsibility in this area, and if one is inclined to be cynical, one would say that the only thing which has changed is that the Radioactive Waste Management Advisory Committee (RWMAC) has become CoRWM. I inherited a situation in which the previous Labour Government’s attempts to develop geological storage had failed in the face of strong public opposition in several different places. I formed the view then that interim storage, as it is described in this paper, was much the most likely outcome and that it would be built in places which had a strong economic interest in the future of the nuclear industry. Moreover, vitrification would be a good way of making safe these materials and would therefore be the most likely process.
Is the position of the Government still the one recommended I think by the committee of the noble
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Lord Rooker: My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord’s confirmation. I asked my officials aboutthis because in the past a lot of people involved in this area would come to round to my house about this subject—and not just those in the industry, but Ministers. So I respect what the noble Lord has said. The energy White Paper made the position abundantly clear. I am well aware of the allegations that nuclear waste would somehow not be dealt with, thus making it much easier for us to oppose new nuclear build. But we have to deal with nuclear waste whether there is new build or not; that is the reality. We owe it to future generations to deal with this waste. The people of this country want the lights to come on when they turn on the light switch. Approximately a fifth of that power is from nuclear energy.
I do not want to get into new plants, but we have to deal with the waste whether or not there is a new build. The position on that was wrapped up more in the energy White Paper, quite separate to the CoRWM report.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, this partnership with host communities was the pipedream of Nirex, which tried to impose the repository on West Cumbria, where I live. It was a disastrous proposition which met universal hostility in the local community. From this we should learn a clear lesson: it is highly unlikely that anyone will volunteer. I might change the phrase from nimby to wimby—“Welcome in my back yard”—but this will not be welcome in anyone’s back yard.
Is not the real answer the one that people simply refuse to examine, which we concluded at the time was the solution; that is, to have an international settlement or site somewhere in the world where everyone sends their nuclear waste? That is the long-term solution that will survive a century; it is not for every nation state to somehow deal with the matter in a local way which offends local communities.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I will not go down that road. I do not know the details and am going on advice here, but I read out a list of countries where this process appears to work. The evidence is that we ought to be able to find a site—I do not know whether a site or sites will be involved—based on international experience. I fully respect what my noble friend says about what happened under the previous proposals, which is probably why the voluntary route is the only way we can go down now.
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Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, as the Minister repeated the Statement, I was struck by how many of the recommendations that form part of it closely mirror what the Select Committee of this House said some seven years ago, in a report under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Tombs. However, there is one exception: our report recognised, as the Minister said today, that Parliament has to be involved. The recommendation we made was that at least once in every Parliament, there should be an opportunity for both Houses, with a Statement of progress in front of them, to have a debate and to support the continuation of the process. I hoped that this line would be supported by all parties.
The Minister is right: this problem has to be dealt with and it will take decades. It is not enough just to say that Ministers are accountable to Parliament. The opportunity for a regular parliamentary debate at least once in every Parliament was seen by that Select Committee as an important measure in giving democratic accountability, so that Governments and those involved—the NDA and the new forum, which I hope will have lots of scientists and engineers on it—have the support of Parliament as the voice of the nation. I do not want a categorical undertaking but I ask that the Minister will take that away and discuss it with his colleagues.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I can give a more specific answer. I am not familiar with the advice that the Select Committee gave seven years ago. However, only two years ago when Parliament pressed the Energy Act, it gave the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority the status of a non-departmental public body. It is subject to scrutiny by Parliament, it can be and is called before the Select Committee in the other place that looks after the DTI, and there are Select Committees here. It seems quite normal that Parliament would want to have regular check-ups or stock-takes on such a long-term process, and that Parliament would do so in the way that it thought appropriate. This matter affects everybody, and if it goes wrong we get the blame. Government are accountable to Parliament.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I have two questions. My first question relates to devolved Administrations. I am not clear what the position would be if it proved impossible to find a geological site in Scotland or Wales but one was found in England, or vice versa. Would the waste from one part of the United Kingdom go to the other part which had accepted it, or is it intended that there will be self-containment, as it were, within each of the units of the United Kingdom?
Secondly, like other noble Lords, I am fascinated by the idea that we are not seeking to impose radioactive waste on any community. That is made very clear in the Statement. To discover what the Government mean by “community” I looked inthe report, but all it has, on page 13, is a list of all the fairly obvious and interesting questions.
It may be unrealistic but let us assume that support could be found to revisit the proposal for a site in west Cumbria. What is a community? What would happen
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Lord Rooker: My Lords, as I understand it, most of west Cumbria and the coast are not within the park authority in the first place, so that issue does not arise. But that is a minor point; the central point of the noble Lord’s question relates to devolved Administrations. Today’s Statement has been agreed with the devolved Administrations. The CoRWM report was published on 31 July, just after Parliament went into Recess. We are making the Statement today because this is the first available opportunity when all three bodies have been sitting. It has not been possible since we have been back because I understand the Welsh Assembly has been in Recess, having come back earlier. If the noble Lord checks the legal arrangements he will find that nuclear waste is a devolved issue—and that, therefore, should answer the first part of his question.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, when covering CoRWM, the Statement referred to the views of the public and the Minister spoke about public discussion. Whenwill the Government start the process of educating the public about the nature of radioactivity and the problems we face, as advocated in the report of the Select Committee of your Lordships’ House in 1999? At present, the general public believe that the problem is insurmountable, that there is no technical solution that works. Clearly such a process will take some time, not a few months—I think the report stated that it will take at least a year or maybe 18 months—so when will we start work on educating the public?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, attempts have been made all along. It is true that most people just want to get on with their lives without any interference from the Government. By and large, this issue affects people when it affects them—either through their jobs, their communities, their locality, their family and so on. CoRWM has gone through an incredible process of consultation around the country which has been open and transparent. For those areas the process is under way. There is no single magic policy or annunciation or statement that will convince everyone. Surely people by now are wised up to the fact that we are losing control over our supplies of gas because the North Sea is running out; that there are some parts of the world that are politically unstable so where are we going to get our energy from? The issues of climate change are beginning to impinge on people. The process goes forward on a daily basis.
Lord Christopher: My Lords, having had, for the second time this year, a three-hour black-out at home, which again reminded me of the 1960s, I have some idea of what could happen in not too many years time unless we move forward on this question. It is absolutely essential that the message is got across to the public and, in that sense, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has raised a very important point. Certainly
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Secondly, the general public’s perception of nuclear waste is grossly misleading. We have heard it described in this House this afternoon as “immense”. That is in the eye of the beholder. I think the last spokesperson for Greenpeace described it as “mountainous,” which it is not. Therefore, it would be helpful if some very clear information could be provided to the public, to remove from people’s minds what is being fed to them by those who are, I think, pushing another agenda: that of not having any further nuclear power plants.
Maybe I am anticipating something that will come along, but most countries have offered incentives. It would be extremely encouraging for local authorities to know that there is a benefit beyond creating employment for those who do not have it. The French did remarkably well in this, but, again, that is a differently run country, although they run my electricity supply. Lastly, presumably it is possible to indicate that some parts of the country are unsuitable. Why have greater anxiety in those parts if we can say, as I am sure Mr Livingstone will say of London, that they are not suitable?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I take my noble friend’s point about needing to overcome an anti-science climate. It does not apply just to this area of activity; there are others. Most people go to hospital without thinking about what happens to the low-level waste. I remember, some years ago, my former colleague, now a Member of this place, the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, receiving letters which said, “You should have this stuff put in your constituency”. Of course, that is where it now is: at Drigg, in Cumbria—tonnes of low-level waste from hospitals all over the country, looked after perfectly adequately. If we were not going to do that, we could not use X-rays in our hospitals. We have to make clear to the public the connection between the benefits they receive from our use of science—including electricity and medical attention—and the need to deal with the consequences. We must explain it properly.
In the past, I suspect this industry has probably been its own worst enemy, by not discussing matters openly enough. When HIV became a problem, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, broke all precedent for the Conservative Party by having all those leaflets that talked about sexual practices put through 20 million doors. No one ever dreamed of doing that. If you explain these things to people, they begin to understand why other policy actions are being taken. If we do not explain, we have only ourselves to blame.
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