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My noble friend mentioned the ICAO policy on airports that have noise problems, but who decides whether the airport is experiencing the problem or the residents around it? Words are all good and fine, but while there has to be a cut-off somewhere—the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, mentions a figure of 500 in Amendment No. 4E—many of us would feel much more comfortable if there was a requirement to take noise and other environmental considerations into
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Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised questions about the reasons that are advanced. That is a matter for procedures, both in this House and the other place. He has been involved in these exercises and it is not a question of each House spelling out exactly why it has reached a conclusion, otherwise we would have a document as long as the Hansard that covered the previous debate. What emerges from that short meeting held to convey reasons is a formula merely to indicate the broad area of dissent, discontent or unacceptability. That is all that this does. He is not advancing his cause by saying that he wants to take this position literally. The argument which is meant to be taken literally is the statement from this Dispatch Box that justifies the Government’s position as we see it, which is what I am attempting to do.
The noble Lord mentioned Coventry and Birmingham, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield. Coventry airport featured in our previous debates. It is an airport of some significance and is close to Birmingham, another major airport. I draw the attention of the House to the planning agreement which exists between Coventry airport and its local planning authority, Warwickshire District Council, which includes a mitigation package. There are a range of noise-related measures in this agreement, such as a sound insulation grant scheme, a ban on night flying by the noisiest aircraft, a night-noise quota to ensure that night noise reduces, and a quiet operations policy that restricts the ways and times aircraft can operate. The airport also includes noise surcharges for louder aircraft in its conditions of use.
The airport reached this agreement and it now has a noise complaints procedure in place. The minutes of its sub-committee concerned with these issues are placed on the internet site, so that all local people are aware of the discussions which go on with regard to this issue and the way in which they can influence it. All these measures have been put in place using the existing powers available to the airport. There has been no compulsion; it is an agreement with the local authority. I certainly appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, given his significant position with a leading authority in this country. I also appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, who also has some experience of local government. Why should we impose from the centre when airports can satisfactorily reach agreement with their localities? That is all the Government are saying. Of course we have a reserve power.
I reassure the noble Lord that anyone can put forward proposals to have an airport designated for consideration by the Secretary of State. As we have said in our White Paper,The Future of Air Transport,
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I appeal to the House to recognise this. The Government are mindful that airports bring an enormous boon to our nation, in terms of both economic development and of course the great pleasure which tourists receive from being able to fly. We all know that the expansion of airports is a reflection of the expansion of the availability of flights to the benefit of our nation, but we also know that airports bring attendant problems—noise and emissions—and controls are necessary. What I want to establish today and want the noble Lord to recognise—I hope that he will therefore withdraw his amendment—is that the other place carefully considered the views of this House on these matters. It has put forward an amendment which strengthens the Secretary of State’s position in taking local factors into consideration. If the Secretary of State decides to act, he has the power to do so, but the best solution is to have permissive legislation so that the main responsibility for airports meeting their requirements lies with the operators of those airports, taking into account the local communities which they serve.
4.45 pm
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that answer but I honestly do not find it very satisfactory. I think that people will be plagued with noise and I wanted the Government to take the matter more seriously, as I believe most people wish us to do. However, I recognise that, if I were to divide the House, I would probably lose and I would be better off accepting the assurance that he gave under Commons Amendment No. 4C. But this is a very serious issue and I warn him that I will come back to him through other channels if I become aware that people’s interests are adversely affected in the areas concerned. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion A1, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Motion A agreed to.
The Lords insist on their Amendment No. 5, do not insist on their Amendment No. 11 and do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 11A in lieu for the following reason—
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The Commons do not insist on their disagreement with the Lords in their Amendment No. 5, do not insist on their Amendment No. 11A, but propose the following amendment to AmendmentNo. 5—
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 5C to Lords Amendment No. 5.
I am sure that, by now, the House will be aware that Section 78 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 enables the Secretary of State to take steps to limit or mitigate the effects of noise and vibration connected with the taking off or landing of aircraft at designated airports. He is not required to set any operating restrictions at night or at any other time but, if restrictions are set, they must be in the form of a numerical limit on movements by aircraft of the types that it is intended to restrict.
In our White Paper, The Future of Air Transport, which followed extensive consultation on our longstanding aircraft noise powers, we said that we would amend the 1982 Act so that operating restrictions might in future be set on a different basis—for example, one more directly related to the noise nuisance caused. Subsections (2) to (4) of the clause as originally drafted would have allowed a future Secretary of State to impose restrictions that limited cumulative amounts of noise caused by an aircraft using a designated airport. The provisions would not have prevented movement limits being set but Ministers could have chosen to set alternative restrictions—for example, noise quotas or a limiting noise contour area. Those might have provided a more effective incentive for the use of quieter aircraft.
In bringing forward these provisions, it was never our intention to prevent future Governments setting stringent controls on night flying at these airports. We have not sought to relax the restrictions. Any suggestion that we have should be considered in the context of our announcement on 6 June this year on night flights at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. That announcement did not provide for any slackening of current limits; it tightened a number of controls, and that demonstrates our commitment to the effective management of noise impacts.
The restrictions regime which comes into effect on 29 October—this coming weekend—will run until October 2012. It has been set using the current legislative framework; that is, the Secretary of State’s powers under Section 78 of the 1982 Act. Nor would we seek to interrupt that regime before 2012 to impose different forms of restriction. Night flying restrictions are put in place for a number of years to allow the industry to plan fleets and scheduling, and to give local stakeholders some certainty. Interrupting a regime would not be sensible or constructive. The value of movement limits to residents round the designated airports and the sense of certainty they are given is clear. Moreover, movement limits would have been a fundamental part of the next night flying regime, regardless of whether the Bill received Royal Assent before the new restrictions were set.
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There have been advances in technology since the 1982 Act was passed, and a movements limit alone would be a pretty blunt instrument as that would not directly influence the types of aircraft used at night or control the amount of noise permitted. That is why noise quotas are set alongside the movement limits at present, as a secondary control to drive the use of the quietest aircraft available.
I am disappointed that the Government’s arguments in favour of amending the Act were not accepted. However, in the interests of moving forward with the many other worthwhile provisions in the Bill, the other place has now proposed an amendment that would remove subsections (2) to (4) of the clause as originally drafted. This means that the relevant provisions of the 1982 Act will, as at present, say unambiguously that any future restrictions will have to be set by limiting the number of aircraft movements as they are now.
By tabling the amendment, we accept that this is not the right time to make a change to the legislation. However, the Government still think that there would be merit in giving the Secretary of State a more flexible power to set such restrictions. That would be possible only if a new legislative opportunity arose. As yet, no such opportunity is apparent. I am therefore clearly signalling to the House that we have nothing in the offing in that respect. The Government seek to continue a balanced approach to controlling and mitigating the noise impacts of night flying at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted.
We have now delivered our commitment to maintain strict controls on night flying and to set those controls by limiting both aircraft movements and noise quota until at least 2012, as stated in the decision announced on 6 June. We remain of the view that it would be sensible for the Secretary of State to have more flexible powers to control aircraft noise at designated airports but accept that this Bill is not the vehicle for that. Accordingly, I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 5C to Lords Amendment No. 5.—(Lord Davies of Oldham.)
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister. We have had numerous debates in this House in the past few months about the noise andthe numbers of night flights. I am grateful that the Government have accepted that this legislation should not be used to change the current regime. We need not go over all the debates again, but the public, especially the public in London, do not want more flights even if they create a lot less noise. Most say that the problem is often not the amount of noise but the fact that there is noise. There is a tremendous fear in London about a considerable increase in the number of night flights. We know that some airlines would like that.
We have had various debates, and I have had numerous representations from all political parties from all over London about this issue. That is why we shall continue to debate it. I declare my interest as leader of Essex County Council. Stansted is not using its quota at the moment; it could have more flights under the existing regime. But it is Heathrow that
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I accept—as I think we all do—that technology moves on and things will change. Future Governments—this Government or my own party when it is in power next year—might want to look at the issue. I do not accept that anyone can set rules and legislation for ever; it is a moving area. I am sure that both Houses, in whatever form, will be debating these issues in the future. I repeat: I am grateful to the Government for accepting this House's view. I therefore accept what the Government are saying today.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister just one question. He said that the matter of altering the Secretary of State's power will have to await another legislative opportunity. I assume that he is referring to primary legislation and that we will not have an order brought before the House which is unamendable so that at a future date we are not going to be able to amend what the Secretary of State is doing.
Lord Bridges: My Lords, I take the opportunity to follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, about possible future increases in the Secretary of State’s powers. I beg the Minister to take this matter seriously. I recall our debate on the White Paper on airports policy a couple of years ago. Two questions were raised which worried me very much at the time and continue to worry me. First, in considering the possible expansion of Stansted, the Government’s document made no reference to the fact that the southern boundary of Stansted Airport was the northern boundary of a unique forest in southern England which is regarded by dendrologists as a matter of great importance. It is astonishing that the department responsible for environmental matters did not even refer to that.
The second issue is the possibility of creating a new airport in Sheppey. There was also a short page on that, and it relied exclusively on the danger that an airport there would pose to migrating birds. The paper did not examine the issue properly or reveal that it would be perfectly possible to move the bird sanctuary created by the RSPB a few miles further to the east, thus making it possible to consider a new airport serving London which would be approachable over sea any time of the day or night, open 24 hours a day and very close to the Channel Tunnel link.
I hope that when future plans are made for these important decisions on airports—this is not specifically on the subject of the amendment today—great care is taken by the department to ensure that the highest quality of environmental information is available to it. I think the White Paper showed that that was not the case.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in the short debate. The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, will forgive me if I do not open a significant discussion on the issues of Stansted
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I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, for recognising that the Government, with the proposals which now come from the other place, are meeting the arguments presented previously with some force in the House. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, must accept that I cannot bind a future Government. He will recognise that there will be another Government before 2012 by another Administration of whatever colour, though I will almost certainly be the one answering on these matters at this Dispatch Box in 2011. The House will, however, recognise that I cannot possibly commit beyond a certain period except to say that in this afternoon’s statement I am reflecting the announcement that the present restrictions will obtain until 2012. The noble Lord, Lord Bridges,will recognise that that position would not be eroded under any changes that Parliament would make to the legislation. That is the best that I can offer and I hope that the noble Lord will accept it in the spirit in which it is given. I commend the Motion.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
NHS Redress Bill [HL]
5 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Health(Lord Warner): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
commons amendments[The page and line references are to Bill 137, as first printed for the Commons.]
(d) the giving of a report on the action which has been, or will be, taken to prevent similar cases arising,”Lord Warner: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 and 2. This group of amendments deals primarily with the provision of reports to individual patients, and annual reports.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, made to Clause 3(2) in the other place, provide that redress will now ordinarily also include the giving of a report on the action that has been, or will be, taken at local level to prevent similar cases arising. During the debate in both this House and another place, the point has been
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There will be occasions where mistakes can simply be ascribed to genuine human error or where no procedural changes need to be made, and there a report of that type will not be appropriate. In these specific types of circumstances, the scheme may provide that a report will not be necessary. Ordinarily, though, such a report will now be provided.
Amendment No. 6, agreed in the other place, requires the scheme to provide for the findings of an investigation to be recorded in a report, which is to be made available on their request to the individual seeking redress. To reduce unnecessary bureaucracy for scheme members, we do not wish to impose an extra burden on them to provide the investigation report in every case. In some cases, an explanation may be adequate, but these amendments now ensure that, ordinarily, the investigation report will be provided if requested.
The amendments enable the scheme to provide that the report need not be provided before an offer is made or before proceedings are terminated, which is also intended to reduce the administrative burden on scheme members. It is envisaged that when the offer of redress is made an investigation report will be sent to the individual, where they want a copy of it. That will give them a complete set of documentation, which they can then consider with their legal adviser when the offer under the scheme is being assessed.
The amendments also enable the scheme to specify other circumstances where the reports need not be provided. That is intended to be used for rare cases where, for example, the person seeking redress is not the patient and it is considered appropriate to withhold certain confidential health information. I wish to provide reassurance that any exceptions will be the subject of full consultation.
I hope that the amendments made in the other place will satisfy noble Lords that we fully intendthe investigative process to be transparent. The investigation report will not be kept back on grounds that it is privileged, nor will it be claimed that investigation reports are “without prejudice” and inadmissible in any subsequent legal action.
Regarding Amendments Nos. 11, 14 and 15, it has been the Government’s intention to require a member of the redress scheme to prepare and publish an annual report about cases falling under the scheme and the lessons to be learnt from them. However, Clause 10(2)(i) provided that a scheme may require a member of it to prepare and publish an annual report about such cases and their lessons. These amendments are a response to the discussions that have taken place in both this House and another place. They place on the face of the Bill a requirement on scheme members to publish an annual report. The “may” has been replaced by “must”.
Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 are minor drafting amendments and clarify existing policy. Amendment No. 12 leaves out the words “a specified person” in Clause 10(2)(h) and replaces it with the words,
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