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Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his last reply is most worrying? He will recall that his right honourable friend Douglas Hurd, when he was Foreign Secretary, said that he did not want the European Union to interfere in the nooks and crannies of our national life. It now seems that the Minister is quite happy for the European Union to interfere with our Granny Smiths and indeed our Cox's Orange Pippins. Perhaps he will reconsider his remarks.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, as I said in my initial Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, these regulations, or something very similar, have been in place since 1928, when I believe the noble Lord would have been a boy in body as well as in mind. Maybe he enjoyed his time scrumping apples. I am sure that he chose the bigger ones when he did so because apples are best to eat when they are ripe and appealing to the eye. Since 1928 we have pursued a policy that allowing small apples onto the market would tend to diminish the regard in which English apples are held. Before we joined the European Union, I believe that those arrangements were voluntary. Since joining the European Union they have become compulsory because of the way in which size restrictions interact with
intervention. I am sure the noble Lord will be delighted to know that today we have agreed a very substantial amendment to the European fruit and vegetable regime which will result in a 40 per cent. reduction in intervention prices and limitation to 10 per cent. of any producer organisation's output. That will take us a long way down the road towards no restrictions and back to the original pattern of recommendations rather than rules.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: My Lords, does my noble friend accept the saying that many of us have used for years; namely, that you should not judge an apple by its size?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, nonetheless, one can judge a good deal about an apple by its size.
Lord Carter: My Lords, is the Minister saying that what was a quality standard is now enforceable by European regulations?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, yes. We cannot market apples that do not conform with the quality standards; otherwise we will have problems under intervention. The noble Lord will recall the extent of the problem with Greek nectarines which resulted in 70 per cent. of an unmarketable crop being accepted for intervention. That was a scandal we would not wish to see repeated in the apple market.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, does my noble friend recollect the Answer he gave me in October last year concerning the sale of nectarines of less than two-and-a-quarter inches in diameter? He told me then that,
- "The Commission has sought to tackle this to some extent by limiting the size of fruit that can be marketed and thus limiting the cost to EU taxpayers".
- "In the forthcoming reform of the EC Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Regime, the UK will be pressing for the abolition of withdrawal aid. Then, the needs of the market will determine the size of the fruit that is available to the consumer".--[Official Report, 16/10/96; cols. WA 76-77.]
Lord Lucas: My Lords, yes, it is a good ambition; but no, we have not yet achieved it. We are making progress towards it.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a number of factors affect the size of apples; for instance, the number of fruits the tree is allowed to bear and the amount of pesticides and fertilisers used on it? In the case particularly of Cox's Orange Pippins, is the Minister aware that many mothers like the small
apples for their children? They can cope with a small apple but not with a huge one. So half the apple goes to waste. Or perhaps that is good salesmanship.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, the minimum size for a marketable Cox is 55 millimetres, and that is a pretty small apple.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the Minister aware that his answers confirm what I have suspected all along? I refer to the fact that the Government are in favour of the right of the Commission to determine the size or quality of all apples sold in the United Kingdom?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, our ambition is clearly to get rid of intervention in these products. When that is gone, all need for regulation will be gone. Nonetheless, there is a need for internationally agreed standards for fruit to be internationally tradeable. As those align closely with the present Commission standards, the Commission is on exactly the right lines.
Baroness Strange: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that since the regulations came into force we have been unable to sell good Scottish apples like Tower of Glamis, Bloody Ploughmen and Winter Strawberry?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, if my noble friend can persuade Asda to stock them, perhaps there will be a sufficient demand to enable us to persuade the European Union to make the necessary changes in the regulations, which are purely practical. I suspect that those apples are produced in small quantities on a local basis and therefore can be sold freely in farm shops and at the farm gate.
Model Agencies
3.13 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they intend to change the present arrangements for the registration and supervision of model agencies.
The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Fraser of Carmyllie): My Lords, model agencies do not have to be registered by my department but they are regulated under the Employment Agencies Act 1973. We intend to consult shortly on possible revisions to the associated regulations.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for his reply. In view of a recent deplorable case, are the Government concerned about residential agencies that purport to provide
training for teenage girls? Young girls and their parents usually hope that that will open the door to a glamorous and financially rewarding career on the catwalk.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, the Government were not only concerned about the case to which my noble friend refers; we were appalled by the depraved conduct of the individual concerned. I should make clear that at present agencies are prohibited from making the provisions of employment-finding services to workers conditional upon the use of other services provided by the agent for which fees are charged. I regret to say that Mr. Peter Martin lured girls into his house and systematically sexually abused them. That had nothing to do with training opportunities being provided for them; it was simply sexual abuse.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the Minister aware that his Government abolished the regulations which governed not only model agencies but all employment and theatrical agencies? They were entirely mistaken in doing that and that case is an example of what happens if we remove all regulations in that sensitive sphere. I am sure that the next government will recognise the need for those regulations to be replaced.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, Mr. Peter Martin was licensed to run model agencies during the 13 years when he systematically sexually abused young girls. It is correct, as the noble Lord said, that under the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act we removed the requirement for licensing. However, it is important to stress that, as it was removed, a power of prohibition on people running that type of agency and others was introduced and the power of prohibition could extend for as long as 10 years.
Lord Peston: My Lords, is the Minister saying that his department does not possess supervisory powers in respect of model agencies? If so, is it not possible for many more such abuses to exist that are not drawn to his attention? I understand that his Answer referred to the fact that this is related to employment regulations rather than concerned with consumer protection for whoever may buy the services of such agencies. If that is right, does he not recognise that it is a serious state of affairs? There may well be more abuse taking place than any of us know about.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, I did not intend to indicate that the department did not have a supervisory role. I said that following the 1994 Act there was no longer a requirement for an agency to be licensed. The department has a supervisory role and the power exercised at the end of the day is a power of prohibition against those who may be unfit persons to run such agencies. It is also the responsibility of the department to see whether there are appropriate circumstances in which to prosecute the individuals. In both circumstances we seek prohibition orders and also prosecute.
School Playing Fields: Preservation
3.17 p.m.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they will introduce legislation to prohibit schools and local education authorities from selling playing fields.
Lord Henley: My Lords, it is the Government's policy that playing fields that schools need should be retained. Those playing fields are protected by the school premises regulations. The Government believe that local education authorities and schools are best placed to take management decisions affecting their assets within the constraints of the school premises regulations.
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