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Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Hotspur, surely!
Lord Morris of Castle Morris: My Lords, no, Lear. I will have a modest pint on it. The idea is to give grant-maintained schools new freedoms to decide how they should develop. "We are not going to tell them how to develop", say the Government, "they can think of that for themselves". The third objective is to respond to concern over standards of school discipline.
The Government believe that selection improves and widens parental choice. As the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said, and as I have said on many occasions, I can answer that in two words. Not so. Selection flies in the face of parental preference. It is not the parents who choose the school, it is the school which chooses the children. Parents can only apply. My noble friend Lord Ponsonby painted a bleak picture of what happens to the parents of Wandsworth who go around applying to its schools.
Appeals by parents whose children have not been offered a place in a school of their choice have increased by 160 per cent. in the past five years, and, in any case, this practice of "shopping around" the educational system is a benefit only to those with the skill, information, determination and time to advance their children's interests. Durham County Council estimates that, if 10 per cent. of its schools selected, its first year costs would be just under £400,000, rising over time to £8 million if all its schools selected.
Yet the evidence is that neither schools nor parents have shown enthusiasm for increased selection in the past. We have just had the figures, and they are on the record. The DfEE consulted on whether to raise the level of selection from 10 per cent. to 15 per cent. Only 1 per cent. of the consultees said that they were in favour--only 15 out of 1,500 organisations.
The proposals rumoured to be in the Bill on raising standards and improving discipline seem, on the whole, to be lifted lock, stock and barrel, horse, foot and guns, from Labour Party policy statements--amending school exclusion law, home-school contracts, the merger of the School Curriculum and Assessment Authority and the National Council for Vocational Qualifications. We have said it all years ago, so I suppose that we should
receive the flattery gracefully and gratefully. But I must confess to a little doubt about the detention proposal--allowing schools to retain pupils after school hours without their parents' consent. It might just about work in urban areas, provided that the pupils concerned do not just raise two fingers in scorn to their teachers and say, "I shan't be in detention at all. I'm going, and I'm going now", which they frequently do. But in rural areas, even ashamed pupils are in difficulties, because school transport is timed and costed. It would create problems. You could hardly imagine the possibility of a schoolmaster saying, "You are in detention tonight, my boy, unless of course you live more than five miles away from the school and you have no alternative means of transport".But it has not been the happiest of weeks for the DfEE. It started with the moral and disciplinary problems of The Ridings School, Halifax, and it ended with the quite hilarious report of the National Forum for Values in Education and the Community, which seems, inadvertently of course, to have forgotten the importance of the family and the institution of marriage in making its report. I am told that the Secretary of State herself had to tick it off and put it right. Perhaps she will put all 150 of its members in detention for their sin of omission. Alternatively, she may indeed be thinking of bringing back the cane to administer an appropriate punishment for them, although I believe that the Prime Minister this morning brought back the cane for her. I ask the Minister when he replies, now that he has had well over four hours to obtain the appropriate answer from the appropriate authority or the appropriate people in the Box, to tell us: do the Government approve of corporal punishment in schools or not?
As I said at the beginning, this Government have run out of everything--ideas, time and steam. Like Oliver Cromwell in 1653, I can only say:
- "Let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!".
8.25 p.m.
Lord Henley: My Lords, as my noble friend made clear in his opening speech some five hours ago, today's is a fairly compounded debate, covering four subjects, to each of which, as my noble friend put it, we could have given a whole day. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, described it as a somewhat disparate menu. We have gone through the menu, and I hope noble Lords will accept that I shall concentrate on just one or two particular meals--if I may put it that way--for the sake of preventing indigestion, not just for myself but for noble Lords who have to listen.
I must necessarily be brief, but I shall say a little about the education Bill about which we have heard so much from the noble Lord, Lord Morris, despite the fact that it is not to be published until tomorrow. I shall tell him a little more about it in advance of its publication. I am grateful that in his opening speech my noble friend explained his department's plans for legislation.
My noble friend reminded us, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, of the growing world population. It is worth my stressing, as an education Minister, that we are not just facing a growing population. We are
facing a changed demographic shape of this country's population. We are obviously an ageing population. The pensions burden of that ageing population will be borne increasingly by those of working age. We are moving from a time where something of the order of three people are in work for every pensioner to the time when I come to retire when we shall be down to two people for each pensioner.The dramatic increase in the burden on the pensioner means, as many noble Lords have made clear, that we need an ever more skilled workforce in the future--a workforce that can add ever more to the goods and the processes with which they are involved. That is why I believe it becomes ever more important that we seek to raise standards throughout our educational system. That has been very much the spirit behind the merger of the Departments of Education and Employment--a merger that I suspect the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, had not noticed, but a merger which I believe has been welcomed even by the Front Bench of the party opposite, trade unions and many others.
A great many reforms have been made to education over the past few years. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, and others spoke of some 18 education Bills. I dare say that they are right. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, spoke of education being still in a state of absolute abyss. I have to say that I hope he will consider carefully those remarks because they are a slur on the educational system. There is a great deal that is very good. There is a great deal that is excellent in the educational system. It is not fair to those involved in the educational system to say that we have slipped into an abyss and to start quoting rather peculiar reports that seem to put us at the bottom of any international educational league table--a report that, as I understand it, put levels of training in the Philippines higher than those in France. That is not a report that I suspect we can take too seriously.
If the noble Lord is making criticisms of the educational system, I would like him to look at the educational system in one or two individual Labour-controlled LEAs. Why not have a look at the educational system in Islington and ask the leader of his party why he does not want to send his children there? Why not look at the educational system in Southwark and ask Miss Harman why she does not want to send her children there?
Lord Henley: No, they are valid points. Those LEAs have been Labour for years and years and years.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, that is cheap.
Lord Henley: My Lords, I do not believe that it is cheap. I admire them for recognising the fact that they have a choice and for exercising it. However, to say that they will deny that choice to others is not fair at all. Where there is talk of a bad record in education, Labour local education authorities of the likes of Islington, Hackney and Southwark should look at themselves.
During the past few years we have pursued vigorously a policy of greater choice--dare I say to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, greater choice for all?--greater diversity, greater parental involvement and greater availability of information about how schools are operating and performing. That is greater information for all. Through all that and more frequent inspections we are seeing a steady raising of standards. Our education Bill is part of that continuing process. Perhaps I may give an international comparison. The noble Lord, Lord Williams, spoke of our having the second highest graduation rate in the entire European Union. I believe that that is no bad thing.
In looking to improvements in education and educational standards we must not lose sight of the wider role of education in society. Education is education for life, which again is one of the spirits of the merger, and for citizenship. It is not only for work. We must not be excessively utilitarian. Schools have a duty to promote their pupils' spiritual, moral and cultural development as well as their more narrowly academic progress. Recent events have rightly drawn the attention of us all to the need for moral values and decent behaviour both in and out of school.
I shall not pretend that our Bill has all the answers--of course it does not--but its provisions on discipline, to which I shall turn in a moment, are very relevant to the current debate. It is also important to acknowledge what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, about the need for greater parenting skills and the important issue of teaching personal, social and health education.
Much good work is being carried out in schools at the moment. Much good work is done by dedicated teachers and governors to promote within those schools an ethos which encourages personal responsibility, good behaviour and respect for others. But in this area, as in all areas, there is obviously scope for further work. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, and the right reverend Prelate will know of a report from SCAA's national forum, which is due to be launched on 1st November. Perhaps I may point out to the noble Lord that it is the forum's report and not a report from my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. It will be putting out a document for wide consultation on ways of supporting schools' contribution to pupils' moral and spiritual development. Those consultations will explore whether common agreement can be reached on the values, attitudes and behaviour which schools should promote. I recommend the noble Lords, Lord Northbourne and Lord Morris, and others to read the report when it is published on Friday. I hope that they will find much which fits in with their own thoughts. Indeed, I hope that they will wish to make their views known to SCAA during the consultation process. Following that consultation process, the Government look forward to receiving advice from SCAA some time in February next year. We will then decide what further action should be taken in the light of that advice.
As I made clear, since 1979 we have pursued the policy of greater choice and diversity. The Bill to be published tomorrow builds on that and will allow different types of schools to introduce or extend
selection without needing the central approval required at present. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord, Lord Tope, who claimed that the grant-maintained school movement was a failure, that some 20 per cent. of all secondary school children are now in grant-maintained schools. I believe that that is no failure. Grant-maintained schools will now be able to select up to 50 per cent. of their intake without applying for central approval. The LEA schools within the specialist schools programme--that is the language schools, the technology colleges and others--will be able to select up to 30 per cent. of their pupils in their specialism by aptitude. All other schools will be able to select up to 20 per cent. by ability or aptitude. The Government are keen to give new freedoms to grant-maintained schools in particular so that they can respond to local needs and make their own judgments about their future. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Morris, that that means they will be able to open a sixth form, set up a new nursery and boarding facilities and expand their capacity by up to 50 per cent.--and all of that without the need for central approval.The second main theme of the Bill is to help schools in tackling indiscipline and poor behaviour. Only too recently we have seen the problems which exist when children do not accept the rules which must apply within any well run organisation. It is not just the individual's education that is affected. The whole class can be disrupted. Pupils need to know and to understand the boundaries of acceptable behaviour. That is why the Government have proposed a wide range of measures which, taken together, will support teachers and schools and, ultimately, other pupils in dealing with these children. Teachers need support in maintaining discipline; support from governors and LEAs; support from parents and the local community; and support from the Government in the national framework that we set.
Finally as regards discipline, I turn to the issue of corporal punishment which was put to me only a few minutes ago by the noble Lord, Lord Morris, and put to us all some time ago by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. I can tell the House that there is nothing on corporal punishment in the education Bill. Teachers and schools have not asked for it. Obviously, Members may raise the matter during the passage of the Bill. I remember that the subject of corporal punishment arose in debates on the nursery vouchers Bill when it proceeded through this House last year. Obviously, there are a wide range of views. But the Government are not persuaded of its practicalities and have no plans to put it into the Bill.
There are a whole range of other measures within the Bill. Time prevents my running through all of them. There is, for instance, the measure to merge SCAA and NCVQ, which I imagine might even have the support of the party opposite. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, said that the Bill will contain nothing on unemployment. Perhaps I may tell him that the Bill will contain aspects relating to aspects of employment in respect of which I had hoped I might find a degree of support from the noble Lord. Effective careers education and guidance are vital for our future competitiveness. I can tell the noble Lord that the legislation will introduce a duty on schools to provide a programme on careers education
for pupils aged 14 to 16 and it will require schools and colleges to provide access to, and to work with, a careers service.Finally, on the subject of education, the noble Lord, Lord Williams, mentioned the Education (Student Loans) Act, as did a number of others. The noble Lord accused the department of a lack of integrity. I resent that and reject it absolutely. It is absolute nonsense. It was always intended that the legislation was there to test the water. I gave assurances at the Dispatch Box, as did my honourable friends in another place, that we were not going to sign up to anything; that we would sign up only should the right deal be available. We stuck to the assurance that we gave at the Dispatch Box. Is the noble Lord really telling me that I should have come before the House and said, "Actually, we could not get the best deal, but for the sake of keeping the noble Lord, Lord Williams, happy we decided to go ahead with it anyway"? No, we did exactly what we assured we would do at the Dispatch Box.
A large number of subjects going beyond the educational world were raised during the debate and I must comment on one or two. Perhaps I may begin with BSE about which considerable concerns have been raised. I feel a little disadvantaged, not being an expert. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that he was not an expert on agriculture; similarly neither am I. Therefore, I feel somewhat disadvantaged in addressing the House on a matter covered in two recent debates. It is important that I point out that the Government have committed fairly large sums of taxpayers' money to support the British beef industry at this time of crisis. An extremely substantial sum of £3 billion has been committed to deal with this matter. I recognise the problems because I come from a similar part of the country mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Elis-Thomas and Lord Mackie of Benshie, who both referred to hill farmers. We consider it right to provide significant new support to the specialist beef sector, and accordingly an additional £60 million will be provided in respect of the hill farmers through the 1997 livestock compensatory allowances.
A vast array of other subjects has been raised, and subjects on which I do not feel competent to speak. We have heard a great deal about school matters and those are matters for myself. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway referred to his anxieties relating to special educational needs. He has put those concerns to me on occasions and we shall be able to debate those on the Second Reading of his Bill which deals with that. I look forward to those debates.
The noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, talked about how we should be making greater use of brownfield rather than greenfield sites. I could not agree with her more. I recommend that she comes to see some of the regeneration which is taking place in many parts of the country. I have a particular responsibility in relation to Barnsley and the Dearne Valley, and I invite the noble Baroness to see the transformation which is taking place on what was one of the largest sites of dereliction in Europe. She would then see just what can be done.
I greatly welcomed what my noble friend Lord Peel said. He told us from his personal experience of just how much can be done at relatively little cost in terms of environmental improvement.
I was extremely amused by what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said about the National Lottery and the state of sport. I think he was slightly unfair about my honourable friend the Minister for Sport. I do not entirely go along with the noble Lord's view of the role of that Minister. It seemed to have echoes of the role of the Minister for Sport in the former countries of eastern Europe. I suspect that some of his views expressed on that would be more in keeping with those of Honecker or Ceausescu. But perhaps the noble Lord and I take a slightly different approach to those matters. I do not take the "statist" approach which the noble Lord would like to take.
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