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Police Bill [H.L.]
3.36 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision for the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the National Crime Squad; to make provision about entry on and interference with property and with wireless telegraphy in the course of the prevention or detection of serious crime; to make provision for the Police Information Technology Organisation; to provide for the issue of certificates about criminal records; to make provision about the administration and organisation of the police; to repeal certain enactments about rehabilitation of offenders; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.--(Baroness Blatch.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Human Rights Bill [H.L.]
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to incorporate Section 1 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms agreed by the Council of Europe at Rome on 4th November 1950 and the First Protocol to that convention into the law of the United Kingdom; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.--(Lord Lester of Herne Hill.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
House of Lords Offices: Select Committee
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed and that as proposed by the Committee of Selection the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the Committee:
V. Allenby of Megiddo,
L. Brabazon of Tara,
L. Brougham and Vaux,
L. Bruce of Donington,
V. Cranborne (L. Privy Seal),
L. Dean of Beswick,
V. Falkland,
E. Ferrers,
E. Gowrie,
L. Graham of Edmonton,
B. Hamwee,
L. Harris of Greenwich,
L. Jenkins of Hillhead,
L. Lane of Horsell,
L. McIntosh of Haringey,
L. Mackay of Clashfern (Lord Chancellor),
B. Nicol,
E. Northesk,
V. Oxfuird,
L. Peston,
L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn,
L. Richard,
V. Slim,
Bp. Southwark,
L. Strathclyde,
L. Tordoff,
B. Turner of Camden,
V. Ullswater,
L. Weatherill.--(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Liaison: Select Committee
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to advise the House on the resources required for Select Committee work and to allocate resources between Select Committees; to review the Select Committee work of the House; to consider requests for ad hoc committees and report to the House with recommendations; to ensure effective co-ordination between the two Houses; and to consider the availability of Lords to serve on committees;
That as proposed by the Committee of Selection the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the Committee:
L. Allen of Abbeydale,
L. Belstead,
V. Cranborne (L. Privy Seal),
L. Dormand of Easington,
L. Jenkins of Hillhead,
L. Kimball,
L. Richard,
L. Weatherill;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers.--(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Channel Tunnel Rail Link Bill
3.37 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee (on Recommitment) on this Bill. With the leave of the House, I should like to take this opportunity to thank the Select Committee which considered the Bill, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, for its very evident hard work, its thorough consideration of all the issues and indeed its great wisdom in scrutinising the Bill. Some 293 petitions were lodged against the Bill and the Select Committee sat for 31 days. The special report issued by the committee on 15th October is a model of thoroughness and clarity and is of enormous assistance to the House, promoters and petitioners. I am very grateful indeed for the hard work put in by the Select Committee and in particular for the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, which has enabled the Bill to reach this stage.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee (on Recommitment).--(Viscount Goschen.)
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I would like to echo in every respect what the noble Viscount has just said. I suspect that we are going to agree quite a lot today--we often do! Certainly, the arduous and even zealous
efforts that were undertaken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, and his committee were exemplary and have had wide international as well as national implications. I too would like to join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, and his colleagues for the exemplary work that they also have done.
Lord Brougham and Vaux: My Lords, I would like to add my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, for the expeditious and courteous way he chaired our deliberations in the long hot days of June and July. When my noble friend the Chief Whip asked me to serve on the committee my reaction was to say yes. I asked, "Will the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, be chairing the committee?". I had been under his guidance before. The reply from my noble friend was that they had asked him, but he was playing hard to get and that I had better do some arm twisting. The noble Lord said that he had been approached, but he thought that he was a bit past it; that the grey cells were not what they were and his memory was not as sharp as it was 10 years ago when he chaired the committee which dealt with the Channel Tunnel Bill. My reply was that, 10 years on, we all suffer the same problem to a degree. However, with a little pressure, but without any sedation, he agreed. Ten years ago, when my noble friend finished his travels from Calais to Folkestone, little did he realise that he would travel across the Garden of England, across the Thames and up to St. Pancras, the new London terminus for the Channel Tunnel trains.
With the noble Lord's great experience, we were able to complete our deliberations in 31 days, plus two days out. Some times we sat quite late into the early evening. We were ably guided by the Clerk, David Batt, who was able to advise us where any problems might arise or that certain petitions had been withdrawn or agreement had been reached. That was good news to our ears. David was also a very great help to us in our deliberations on Thursdays when we reviewed and considered the evidence that we had heard that week. Together with Brendan Keith, he was of valuable assistance and I offer our thanks to them both.
If it had not been for the very high-tech gizmos which Mr. Gambrill had, we would have been sitting much longer. At the push of a button he could display on the monitors in front of us any map or plan that the petitioners referred to. That saved us rummaging on the floor in the piles of paperwork to find the relevant document. From the outset we endeavoured to get the two parties to come to a consensus. Through our chairman, we tried to guide them to reach agreement. In a vast number of cases we succeeded.
The last thing we wanted to do was to dictate to either party. On a few occasions we had to but, overall, compromises were reached, sometimes at the last minute, in the corridors of your Lordships' House. As a result we were able to produce the unanimous report which is before your Lordships.
Until the Bill receives Royal Assent the promoters cannot get on to the ground to determine the best possible line within the limits of deviation. A lot of questions remain unanswered, but we have some secure
agreements from the promoters and they have gone a long way to satisfy the concerns of a lot of people. Once again, I would like to thank my noble friend, the chairman.On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee (on Recommitment) accordingly.
[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Construction and maintenance of scheduled works]:
Lord Thomson of Monifieth moved Amendment No. 1:
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4, which are grouped together. I apologise to the Committee for the state of my voice. I am very doubtful whether it will last the course. However, I join with the tributes that have been paid to the Select Committee and to the chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, for the marathon task that they undertook with this Bill. I know, from being an occasional spectator, the wise and humane way in which they dealt with what was sometimes an intimidating experience for those who came before the committee from the many areas affected by the proposals in the Bill.
These amendments raise in one way a very simple issue which the Select Committee dealt with very thoroughly and reported on. It deals with that section of the line which runs through a particularly beautiful part of East Kent in the parish of Charing, where I live. The parish council is very concerned that the embankment on which the line is going to operate may be higher than it need be. It may be quite unsightly in terms of the overall environmental impact.
There would have been no need for these amendments if it had not been that, at the very end of the day and the final hearing of the committee on 3rd October, the promoters, in their reaction to the proposals of the Select Committee, simply repeated the point of view that they had put before Kent County Council at an earlier stage. They left a very real degree of ambiguity as to whether in fact, when it came to working out the designs, they really were making a commitment to lower the elevation of the line if it were practicable.
My amendments deal with that issue. One of them, in a sense, simply repeats what I found to be the very comforting words of the chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, at the hearing. He said, on behalf of the committee and in support of the wording in the report itself, that he believed that if the lowering of the elevation proved practicable then it must be lowered; it was not an option. The purpose of these amendments is to try to ensure, as far as one can, that that is the final outcome, by writing that commitment on the face of the Bill.
There are two alternative propositions in the amendments that I have drafted. As I have said, one simply seeks to put into the Bill the position of the Select Committee itself. The second amendment tries to be more precise and to spell out an actual commitment as to what should be the maximum elevation of the embankment on which the line will run in that part of Kent. That is the purpose of the amendments. I thank the Committee for its patience in listening to such a croaking voice. I beg to move.
Page 1, line 17, leave out ("subsection (3)") and insert ("subsections (3) and (3A)").
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