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Viscount Goschen: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if, with the leave of the House, I put the Government's view at this stage. That would not prevent other noble Lords speaking afterwards if they wish.

Lord Henderson of Brompton: My Lords, I hope that will not preclude the noble Viscount speaking again at the end of the debate.

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I shall be delighted to mop up any residual points that may be made.

We have come again to the issue of heritage. I was very pleased to hear that my noble friend Lord Cavendish felt that considerable progress between us had now been made. I was certainly delighted to hear that.

Since the debate on the issue some three weeks ago I have met my noble friend Lord Cavendish, accompanied by his advisers, and also by the Minister of State for Planning, Construction and Energy Efficiency and Department of National Heritage officials. I believe we had a useful and constructive exchange at that time and since then there have been further constructive contacts between English Heritage and London and Continental Railways.

I made it clear on the earlier occasion that we had no intention to ride roughshod over heritage interests. The CTRL scheme, as we all agree, is of national significance and will bring major benefits, not least to the nation's heritage through creating a 21st century railway use for such a fine 19th century station. Because of the importance of the project it is being promoted as

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a hybrid Bill and, as normal for a project approved by such a Bill, the need to apply separately for listed building consent has been disapplied. But in its place we have produced a tailor-made package of requirements, controls and consultation which have been refined during two years' of negotiations. That is the key point which was somewhat absent from some of the press coverage in recent times.

At Committee three weeks ago there was no objection in principle to this approach from my noble friend. The area of difference was quite limited. English Heritage was not satisfied with the provision in the heritage deed that it will be consulted on railway works. Instead it favoured control or agreement. That was in substance the issue that was considered in detail by the Select Committee at the recommittal stage. The committee's view contained in the special report is perfectly clear:

"The Committee has no doubt that the draft Heritage Deed meets the interests of the petitioners".

Perhaps I may spend a few moments on the broader view. The fact that St. Pancras will be the London gateway to the Channel Tunnel Rail Link inevitably means that there will be some heritage impacts but those stand to be more than amply offset by the heritage benefits of the restoration works to St. Pancras Station and Chambers and the bringing back into fruitful use of the Chambers. That point is often not adequately made. That provides the best guarantee of future conservation. Furthermore, with the prospect of the new terminus comes the best regeneration opportunity the King's Cross area has had in decades. There can be no doubt that in heritage terms alone, even before one takes account of the economic and environmental advantages for the area, the new rail link will be a very significant net benefit to the area as a whole.

In the debate a few weeks ago my noble friend Lord Cavendish welcomed the competition announced by LCR to find a viable economic use of St. Pancras Chambers, and applauded the agreement reached by LCR with English Heritage on the arrangements for the listed gasholders and the waterpoint. Since then, as we have heard, there have been continuing constructive discussions between LCR, English Heritage and the local authority about the emerging design principles for the St. Pancras train station and also for the area between St. Pancras and King's Cross. Indeed, I understand that English Heritage has given a warm reception to the outline of the St. Pancras design proposals.

With regard to the further discussions, I understand that at a very recent meeting LCR and English Heritage agreed that they should join together in defining a letter of intent from LCR. This would set out how the stages of consultation provided for in the heritage deed would operate and serve and therefore to identify any potential problems in time for them to be satisfactorily dealt with. I am sure that will come as welcome news to the House.

In recognition of a key concern put to me by my noble friend when we met earlier this week, I offered an additional provision in the heritage deed that introduces a process to determine an important area of potential disputes in this important area. This will allow English Heritage or the local planning authority to seek

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determination by the Secretaries of State for the Environment and for Transport where English Heritage or the authority believes its agreement should be sought on a work but LCR proposes consultation. The Secretaries of State would thus be responsible for interpreting what the deed requires. This is an added protection in addition to all of those which I have already described and which offers heritage interests an avenue of direct appeal for determination to the Secretary of State.

I thought it worth speaking at an early stage after my two noble friends had spoken to put the Government's view, to illustrate the changes that had occurred and to welcome the great progress that I believe has been made towards bringing the heritage interests and those of the promoters nearer together. I feel that we now have an agreement and we have a situation with which we are all happy. While welcoming the opportunity for discussion raised by my noble friend Lord Cavendish I feel confident--I hope my confidence is justified--that he will not feel any need to press his amendment further.

5.45 p.m.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, we are pleased that the Minister sought to meet the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish. I have heard some good words of comfort and I believe that the new procedure needs to be tried on this important project. It is excellent news that it appears that agreement has been reached.

Extensive safeguards are already contained in the development agreement and I understand that those are already in the public domain. Extensive safeguards for planning and heritage are minimum requirements. We have talked a good deal about consultation. It pleases me that the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, is as impressed as I am with the ideas and proposals London and Continental Railways has put forward and with its commitment to heritage.

I wish to strike one note of caution. We must be careful in these discussions that perfection does not become the enemy of the good. There must be a tight timescale to this project if it is to be completed as planned and open to revenue earning traffic. The same happened on the Channel Tunnel. Speed is of the essence. I have a slight concern about the track record of speed and sensible resolution of problems in some of English Heritage's projects. I am no expert on heritage but I question whether it is good value for money to pursue a lady who puts up a special door in her house to keep out the traffic noise from the juggernauts thundering by, a door which looks like wood but is plastic. I also question whether Stonehenge should be staying in the state it is because the only acceptable solution to the road problem is £130 million of tunnel.

Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, £300 million.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that correction. It is £300 million. There must be an easier and cheaper solution in what is a fairly wide open space of countryside. As a result, nothing has happened in the interim because costs are high and finance is short.

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The train sheds and the railway works that go with them need to be used. At the moment they are sitting there doing nothing. I believe that the House should accept the safeguards which have been discussed and that there should be consultation with English Heritage. I hope that in the light of that consultation and the Minister's comments, the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Kennet: My Lords, I wish to make a couple of brief points. I shall not seek to divide the House if the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, does not do so. Perhaps I may remind my noble friend Lord Berkeley that the price tag of the Stonehenge road has risen steadily since the closing of the latest public inquiry. The first figure was £80 million, then it was £120 million and then £140 million. I cannot imagine where the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, came by the figure of £300 million. I look on all those figures with the greatest scepticism.

However, returning to St. Pancras--it was not a long excursion--various speakers today have verged on alleging that the filling out of the detail will delay the construction of the railway. That is quite absurd. In fact, there is no real heritage objection to anything which the railway company wishes to do at St. Pancras. I cannot speak about the rest of the country. The objection is to suspending the law in its favour. As the company does not wish to do anything wrong, why is it necessary to suspend the law in its favour? Why should we believe that it will take longer to go through the normal hoops to obtain approval for whatever bits and pieces it has to do? I am sure that if it does take longer, an emotional appeal from the Secretary of State to Camden Borough Council will induce it to hurry up and that the Secretary of State will take an earlier decision. I wish to register a protest about the bad precedent of the suspension of regular preservation law in this case. That suspension is probably all the worse because there is no need for it.

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