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Lord Annan: My Lords, I rise in some embarrassment because when I intervened in Committee I did not realise that I should have disclosed an interest. I now realise that Foster Associates is the firm of architects producing the designs for the whole project. I must report that my son-in-law is one of its senior partners and may well be involved in this affair, as he was in the design and construction of the fourth London airport at Stansted. I find that embarrassing because it raises a problem about the relations of the architects to the scheme and the way in which that works out.
I appreciate the fine constitutional care which the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, my old friend, has expressed tonight. The only trouble is that it is slightly like one of those two favourite arguments which are sometimes used. I refer not to the doctrine of unripe time--that although this is a marvellous scheme, the time is not yet ripe for it--but to the thin-end-of-the-wedge argument--we must not do this because it might create a precedent and drive a wedge through procedures of which we all very much approve. I understand that that
is a valid argument, but I hope that on this occasion we shall not give into it in view of the importance of the whole rail link, which has been so long delayed.I hope that the architects will produce designs which will satisfy all the preservation groups. Indeed, I believe that that will be the case. However, what will happen if there is a dispute between the architects and the railway company? Do we know anything about the sources of finance and whether they are totally satisfactory to the railway company? Let us suppose that the cash runs out during the project and the railway company goes to Foster Associates and says, "Look, I know that we agreed our scheme. It is a good scheme but you must now make some economies". In making those economies, Foster Associates may well say, "We cannot do that. We gave our word and our reputation as a firm of architects that we will produce a scheme satisfactory to all the environmental groups and concerns and we cannot now cut what we intended to do". In that case, the railway company may well say, "We shall have to find other architects". There will then exist a totally different state of affairs. Where are the safeguards in such a case?
The noble Viscount may well revert to an answer which, if I were in his place, I might well use: that we cannot go into every hypothetical consideration because we should be here all night. But I believe that the problem is genuine and I wish to know whether, if in a situation in which suddenly the terms change, the Secretary of State will be enabled to intervene.
Lord Henderson of Brompton: My Lords, your Lordships might well ask why I am intervening, not having spoken previously. I believed that the arguments for making a small amendment to the Bill were so ably put by the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, and to a lesser extent by the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, that there was no need for a small voice such as mine to be heard. I too have an interest to declare. It is not such a grandiloquent interest as the noble Lord, Lord Annan; it is merely that I am a humble and long-standing member of the Victorian Society. Therefore, I am bound to feel sympathy when a proposal in a Bill which is seemingly as horrific as this is going to go through. In Schedule 7, to be disapplied from all constraints is a notable Grade I listed building, subject to a few concessions in column 3. Column 2 lists the entire set of listed buildings, subject to minute qualifications in column 3.
I believe that the proceedings have been conducted in such a constructive way that I have nothing but praise to accord. My only worry is that the accord is non-parliamentary. Why could it not have been achieved previously? Why were the Government so obstinate? I believe that we are in danger of losing parliamentary control if this kind of nod and a wink is allowed to proceed instead of provisions appearing on the face of the Bill. I believe that that is the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Annan. Parliamentary language is such that it cannot be contravened except by a further amending enactment.
These are very important matters. What the heritage is losing as a result of the rejection of these amendments is that an important precedent is being created. I say to
the noble Lord, Lord Annan, that that is not a fussy or minute point at all. If it is the case, as I believe it is, that Parliament has never before agreed to a provision such as this without first having seen the plans and having approved them, it is not a minute consideration. Parliament is throwing away safeguards for the heritage and for humble organisations such as the one I belong to, the Victorian Society.Having said that, and not having been at the important negotiations which have taken place, of course I cannot oppose the agreements which have been reached by the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, and the noble Viscount. I am extremely thankful that they have come to such agreements. I do not myself wish to amend the Bill at such a late stage as this. I ask the noble Viscount to make public the agreements which so far have been negotiated in secret.
6 p.m.
Lord Ampthill: My Lords, it is in public. The Heritage Deed has been printed and it is available. It has been available to the noble Lord for quite a while now.
Lord Henderson of Brompton: My Lords, I have just been hearing about the negotiations that have been taking place until this afternoon, not some time ago. What I am saying is that the detail of the fine tuning which has been taking place has not been available to me or to the noble Lord unless he has been party to those proceedings, which I suspect he has. I hope that the agreements which have been reached by noble Lords outside this House will, by some means or other, be made available to noble Lords within the House. That is only a second opinion. The first is undoubtedly that they should be in the Bill itself.
Lord Annan: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a question? Has the noble Lord heard, as I have, that the Victorian Society is very satisfied with all that has been agreed?
Lord Henderson of Brompton: My Lords, I believe that is true.
Lord Ampthill: My Lords, I am very happy about almost everything that has been said. Perhaps I may deal first with what my noble friend Lord Henderson has just said. The Heritage Deed takes the place of putting things on the face of the Bill. There are approximately 600 undertakings which have been given. This is a hybrid Bill, which the noble Lord may well remember from his previous career is a different animal from an ordinary government Bill because it is ephemeral. It covers a short period of time and affects only a very small proportion of the population. An immense number of negotiations have to take place. They have the same force of law as if they were on the face of the Bill. If every one of those 600 undertakings were made part and parcel of the Bill there would have to be 600 schedules to the Bill. That would make it an even lengthier document than it is already.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, suggested that this procedure was unprecedented. It is normal with an infrastructure Bill of this nature for the normal rules to
be disapplied. One then puts in their place what has been put back in this instance, the Heritage Deed. It is absolutely true that this is a document which has been under negotiation for, I believe, the best part of two years. It was brought before the Select Committee and we made what we and, I believe, both English Heritage and the Victorian Society regard as some improvements. They obviously did not feel that we went far enough: hence the negotiations which have gone on since we reported the Bill to the House and which, I am very happy to hear, have now resulted in agreement being reached. That agreement will be an amendment not to the Bill but to the Heritage Deed itself, which will have just as binding an effect as it would if it appeared on the face of the Bill.This is one of the two most contentious matters that remained at the conclusion of the hearings of the Select Committee. The other seems to have been resolved. I shall be extremely happy if this one is also resolved.
Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, I would like to thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I say particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that neither I nor English Heritage in this context is pursuing a single interest line. Both of us are extremely excited by this Bill. It is a wonderful Bill offering opportunities not least to the heritage. We are not trying to take a narrow view of detail. Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I shall not be drawn on subjects such as Stonehenge or plastic doors.
However, I would like noble Lords to understand that I took my amendment very seriously albeit that it was a wrecking amendment. One has to get to the heart of the Bill to make an amendment. If I had not had some comfort from various sources, I would have taken it to a Division. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, for his remarks. There is an element of the removal of protection from Grade 1 listed buildings which I still maintain is without precedent, but be that as it may. We have accepted that this is a difficult and complex Bill.
I thank my noble friend Lord Goschen for his detailed reply. As I have said, I believe that this is a compromise over a matter where arguably there should not be one. I hope that the House will take to heart the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, whom I thank for his kind remarks, that this will not be a precedent. Lessons will be learnt from a Bill which is truly unusual. There are many facets which have probably not been before your Lordships' House before.
There is one further matter. I have learnt this afternoon of the outcome of the meeting which took place this afternoon between LCR and English Heritage. LCR has agreed to define in a letter of intent the stages of consultation which will enable English Heritage to identify at any stage any outstanding problems. That is very helpful and provides more evidence, if it were needed, of LCR's goodwill in the matter.
The combination of these two changes gives me comfort. I offer renewed thanks to LCR for its constructive response to the concerns of English Heritage. I also thank my noble friend Lord Inglewood, who played a part in restoring harmony. I renew my
thanks to my noble friend Lord Goschen for his helpful concessions on the draft heritage agreement. I have been given sufficient comfort to beg leave to withdraw my amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 10 [Disapplication and modification of miscellaneous controls]:
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