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Baroness Hayman: My Lords--

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, there is plenty of time for both questions. I think it would be appropriate for us to hear from the Front Bench opposite.

Baroness Hayman: My Lords, if the Minister rejects the description that there is deep crisis in the mental health services in our inner cities, how would she designate the situation as regards acute beds where there are bed occupancy rates of up to 150 per cent. in the acute mental health units in many inner cities? Does she

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not agree that those units are under severe pressure because of the lack of a range of services such as long-term beds and crisis intervention services? What action are the Government taking to ensure that initiatives such as the diversion of mentally disordered offenders from the criminal justice system into the National Health Service is properly resourced? Does the Minister accept the need for a thorough review of the workings of the mental health Act?

Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, we recognise that there is pressure on the mental health services in some of the inner city areas but it is not universal, even in those inner city areas. We know that bed occupancy rates relate not just to resources but also to the way that managers choose to manage. Indeed, on Thursday this week there will be a seminar in London to look at how beds can be better managed. This issue has to be seen in the full context of the building-up of the mental health community teams, many of which have yet to become established. They perhaps need to use volunteers and to find new skills. We are recruiting very heavily for those. It is totally wrong to say that mental health services are in crisis, because clearly they are not.

Lord Alderdice: My Lords, is the Minister aware that in Northern Ireland health and social services systems have been integrated for some time and that psychiatrists, social workers, nurses and others find themselves working together on the same themes? They are not employed by definite authorities and do not have the same kind of problems with budget difficulties across different departments. Would she be prepared to look seriously at those experiences in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years, since they might be usefully applied, whereas one would hope that other experiences in Northern Ireland would not be applied?

Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, we are always willing to look at good experiences or forms of practice across the whole world.

Aircraft: Safety Standards

2.50 p.m.

Lord Brabazon of Tara asked Her Majesty's Government:

    Whether they are still satisfied with the provisions of the 1944 Chicago Convention regarding mutual recognition of certification of aircraft and aircrew.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): My Lords, the Government believe that the mutual recognition of certificates and licences issued in accordance with agreed minimum standards is the best way of ensuring that international civil aviation operates safely and efficiently. We are firmly committed to international action being taken by the International

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Civil Aviation Organisation and the European Civil Aviation Conference to ensure that minimum standards are complied with.

Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that the convention was ratified originally by 26 nations? Yet now I believe there are 16 nations of the former Soviet empire which in theory anyway are allowed to certify their own aircraft for safety--aircraft which come from a country which itself has an appalling record. Can we be satisfied that those countries and others around the world maintain the minimum safety standards which are not only important for their aircraft coming to this country, where we can at least do something about it, but also and perhaps more importantly for other airports in the world where British aircraft fly?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, my noble friend raises a very important point. That is precisely why we co-operate so fully with the international civil aviation assessment programme on a multinational basis, where teams visit contracting states to assess whether ICAO safety standards are being observed. We feel that a multinational approach on this issue will produce the best results.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Federal Aviation Administration in the United States applies different national safety standards for different categories, barring those in the lowest category of safety from United States' air space? Does he consider that that is a valuable initiative and one which Europe would do very well to copy?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, certainly we look very carefully at what the Federal Aviation Administration does. We take great note of the results that it produces. But we feel that the best results are guaranteed by international action, getting as many countries as possible and the signatories of the Chicago Convention to act together to send inspection teams to the various countries which apply to help them assess their own standards.

Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, certification is one thing but operating the standards is another, as I hope my noble friend will agree. On a closely related matter, can he say what is being done by ICAO or any other organisation to encourage former Soviet countries, China and no doubt one or two others, to allow the adoption of height measurement of flying aircraft in feet rather than in metres, as is the case in some of those countries? Does he agree that it would thereby remove some of the complexities and obvious risks of error which can apply, particularly when aircraft transfer from one country's airspace to another's?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I believe my noble friend has identified an important point. It is clearly very important that pilots should know in which system they are talking, whether imperial or metric. With regard to

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which countries operate which systems and the communication between them, I should be delighted to write to my noble friend with the details.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, what do the Government seek to do through the International Civil Aviation Organisation? Do they agree, for example, that there are serious shortcomings in the current annexes governing these issues? There is no guidance, so far as pilot or operator ability is concerned, and no indication of the standards that are required. How can standards be checked unless they are known? Is there not an urgent need, particularly in the light of recent examples, to carry out a review of existing standards? How long are we expected to wait for the international consensus?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, there is no problem of having to wait for international consensus. The assessment programme of which I spoke is under way. I understand that 53 countries have invited teams in and 18 countries have been visited so far. The programme is under way at the moment. It is not possible for any one country to be the world's policeman, as it were, on this issue. There has to be multinational action. We firmly believe that the programme being taken forward by ICAO is the best way for that to happen and for the countries to take seriously their responsibilities under the Chicago Convention.

Lord Whaddon: My Lords, will the noble Viscount bear in mind that air traffic control systems are of equal importance for safety? For aircraft to depart and arrive at an airport over the same path in opposite directions is not the happiest arrangement and is in fact an accident waiting to happen. Will he do his best to ensure that such practices are eliminated?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, air traffic control is clearly the responsibility of the host state. But I agree with the noble Lord that air traffic control is of paramount importance when it comes to the safety organisation at an airport. I understand that a Question has been tabled on this very subject from the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and is to be answered later this week. That might be the appropriate moment to talk in further detail about air traffic control.

Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, can my noble friend say how many inspections have taken place in this country of foreign aircraft which were considered likely to fail the tests? What action has been taken where such an aircraft has failed?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, my noble friend has identified another strand in the process. The Civil Aviation Authority in this country carries out ramp checks on aircraft. I understand that it has carried out 23 so far this year at the request of my department and two on its own initiative. Where there are serious problems, the aircraft can be detained and can be banned from flying. If we felt that there was enough evidence to have real doubts about the standards overall of the

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countries to which those aircraft were flying, we should not permit operations to continue from those countries. Happily, the vast majority of the ramp checks that have been undertaken have revealed only minor problems.

West Coast Main Line Railway: Investment

2.57 p.m.

Lord Dean of Beswick asked Her Majesty's Government:

    How much has been invested by the Department of Transport and other sources of investment in the West Coast Main Line since the beginning of 1993, and what estimates of future investment they have made.

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, Railtrack is responsible for investment in the rail infrastructure. Railtrack has confirmed that investment in the West Coast Main Line for the financial year 1994-95 was £47.6 million. For the following year it was £50.9 million and for this year it will be £70.1 million. Railtrack is planning to spend a total of £1.35 billion over an eight to 10-year programme to renew the core infrastructure and is prepared to spend an additional £150 million on a passenger upgrade.


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