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Lord Haskel: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather worrying reply. Is he not aware of the report by the International Airline Pilots Association of the dangers of flying over Africa? Does he not agree that, in view of the fact that little can be done at the moment, the Government ought perhaps to be warning passengers of the minimum standards of safety when flying over Africa?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I certainly do not accept that my reply was worrying. Indeed, it described the appropriate procedures. There is an international body involved in this field--the International Civil Aviation Organisation--and it is entirely appropriate that it should co-ordinate the setting of standards. We believe that it is entirely right to support the ICAO in this matter. Clearly, standards of air traffic control provision vary considerably around the world and it is for operators to recognise the circumstances into which they are flying and for their commanders to follow the procedures accordingly.
Lord Gisborough: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Africa is notorious for dangers and that there are accidents waiting to happen unless something is done?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, there are many countries in Africa. Some have very little infrastructure, never mind an air traffic control infrastructure. What is important is that operators who go to that part of the world are aware of the situation in each individual country over which they fly and adapt their procedures accordingly.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is it not obvious that the inadequacy of air traffic control infrastructure over Africa, the virtual non-existence of radar control facilities, the lack of adequate training and competence among air traffic controllers, in so far as they exist at all, and failures of communication links are due to the fact that those countries do not have the wherewithal to be able to support the necessary infrastructure which would reasonably guarantee a much safer standard? Simply referring the matter to ICAO, which of course is desirable, will not resolve the matter unless the developed world understands the nature of the economic problem confronting these countries and, for the sake of their own citizens, aircraft crew are prepared to take action together to try to ensure that standards are improved.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, the noble Lord is right to draw attention to the perilous economic circumstances of many of the countries involved. That is often the reason why they do not have sophisticated air traffic control equipment or infrastructure. That is why ICAO has a problem of technical assistance and why the United Kingdom, through the ODA, has
previously funded a number of development projects in Africa which have involved improvements to ATC and other aviation facilities. The international community can do a certain amount through this type of action, but we must all support ICAO in the action it is seeking as well.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, bearing in mind that one of the busiest air routes in the whole world is the North Atlantic route, where of course there is no radar cover--it is very effectively controlled by oceanic control at Prestwick and by counterparts in the United States and Canada--would it not be desirable to set up a similar system to cover the African continent with perhaps a control centre in southern Europe run by Europe Control and another one in South Africa run by the South Africans?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point about the way in which transatlantic traffic is catered for. But that is rather different because there is crossing traffic in Africa, whereas essentially on the transatlantic routes aircraft depart at one end and are received at the other, and travel in a linear fashion. That is very effective indeed and, without radar, it is possible to organise air traffic control along those lines.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, can my noble friend ensure that if extra help is given--as it probably should be--for the creation and operation of air traffic control facilities in Africa, that it is very specific; that it remains under the control of the donor nations and that it does not go down the same sink of iniquity, corruption and violence down which most aid goes in Africa?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, on the wider point of aid, it is clearly the Government's policy that moneys which are given in aid are used as effectively as possible for the benefit of local people. That is very much what has underpinned our aid policy. We want to see the best value for the money that we put in.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, in the discussions with ICAO we must look for a firm timetable for action because mere talk is not sufficient. I am sure that the House is gratified by the support that has been given, albeit that it is not on an adequate scale, by a number of western countries. Bearing in mind the criteria for support which the Minister has mentioned, will he seek to obtain a timetable for action during the course of the ICAO discussions?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I support the sentiment behind what the noble Lord is trying to achieve through his question, but I believe that he underestimates the difficulties involved here. There are very many countries involved and they have widely differing economic circumstances. It is simply not possible to impose on a sovereign nation one's own views about air traffic control systems and then to have them paid for. Clearly, there are improvements that can
be made here. We want to play our part, but the international community as well needs to be involved and that is what is happening.Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
3.12 p.m.
The Lord Advocate (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to town and country planning in Scotland with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.-- (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to special controls in respect of buildings and areas of special architectural or historic interest with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.-- (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Planning (Hazardous Substances) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to special controls in respect of hazardous substances with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.-- (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision for repeals, consequential amendments, transitional matters and savings in connection with the consolidation of enactments in the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997, the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) (Scotland) Act and the Planning
(Hazardous Substances) (Scotland) Act 1997 (including provisions to give effect to recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission). I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.-- (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Police Bill [H.L.]
3.14 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.--(Baroness Blatch.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
Schedule 1 [Appointment of Members of the Service Authorities]:
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 1:
The noble Lord said: Before starting on the substantive business and in order to allow noble Lords to leave quietly, perhaps I may apologise to the Committee for my incorrect grouping of the amendments. When I was sorting out the chairmanship from the membership of the core authority I should have separated Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 6 from the rest rather than Amendment No. 6 alone. On this occasion, therefore, I am moving Amendment No. 1 and speaking also to Amendments Nos. 4 and 5.
The Committee will perhaps be surprised that, in the consideration of this Bill, we have allowed Clauses 1 and 46 to go through without amendments. That is most unusual in the consideration of a complicated Bill, but there are good reasons for it. I believe that those good reasons were made clear at Second Reading when the Opposition gave their support to the establishment of the statutory National Criminal Intelligence Service and the National Crime Squad. These are not matters of political controversy between us and Clauses 1 and 46, which set up those bodies on a statutory basis, have received our entire approval.
Where we differ from the Government is in the constitution in particular of the core authority which is to direct the operations of these two organisations. When I speak to these amendments I am reminded of the amendments that we made to the Police and Magistrates' Courts Bill only a few years ago. I am disappointed that the noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw, and the noble Lord, Lord Carr of Hadley, who were in their seats only a minute ago, are not in their places now. They played such a valiant part in persuading the
As is made clear in the schedule, what is proposed by the Government is that the so-called independent members, who are in fact members appointed by the Secretary of State, should form half of the core membership of the two bodies and that the chairman who is to be appointed by the Secretary of State should have a second and casting vote. In effect, therefore, that is giving the Secretary of State a majority of the effective voting membership of the core authority. It was exactly those proposals which the House, with support from all sides, resisted so strongly when we considered the Police and Magistrates' Courts Bill.
What we are proposing in Amendments Nos. 1, 4 and 5 is that, instead of three so-called independent members appointed by the Secretary of State, there should be only two; that the civil servant member to be appointed by the Secretary of State should be removed from the core membership and that the two resulting vacancies in the core membership of 10 should be filled by local authority members of police authorities.
It is not as though there were any shortage of effective controls for the Secretary of State in respect of either of these two organisations. For the sake of simplicity I shall concentrate on the National Criminal Intelligence Service, although similar provisions apply for the National Crime Squad. When we look at the clauses in Part I of the Bill which deal with the National Criminal Intelligence Service we find that Clause 25 provides that the Secretary of State has the responsibility for ensuring the efficiency and effectiveness of NCIS. In Clause 26 it is the Secretary of State who sets objectives for NCIS. In Clause 27 it is the Secretary of State who sets performance targets for NCIS. In Clause 29 it is the Secretary of State who has power to remove the director general if necessary. In Clause 30 it is the Secretary of State who has power to order inspections of the NCIS and to give directions to the service in the case of an adverse inspection report.
In Clause 31 it is the Secretary of State who has power to require from the authority reports on any subject he chooses. In Clause 32 he has power to require reports from the director general on any subject that he chooses. In Clause 34 it is the Secretary of State who has power to order inquiries into the operations of NCIS. In Clause 35 he has the right to impose standardised equipment on NCIS. In Clause 36 the Secretary of State has the right to impose the requirement that standardised common services should be used by NCIS. Clause 37 gives him power by regulation to lay down disciplinary procedures. In Clause 38 he has the right by regulation to lay down complaints procedures. There can be no doubt that the Secretary of State has the National Criminal Intelligence Service tied hand and foot to his own wishes and to the wishes of central government.
If that were all, perhaps the argument that he should then appoint an effective voting majority of the members of the core authority would have some
Page 50, line 9, leave out ("Three") and insert ("Two").
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