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Baroness Blatch: The noble Lord makes my point for me. That confirms the noble Lord's independence. I am simply saying that being of Liberal Democrat, Labour or Conservative persuasion in terms of the vote does not inhibit people from being independent and taking issues as they see them, on their merit, and making their own judgment. That is important.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The Minister does not need to defend her noble friend Lady O'Cathain; she was not being attacked. Had she listened to my remarks she would have heard me praising the noble Baroness's independence at all times.
Personal issues apart, there is a profound difficulty. To accuse those of us who attack the expanding use of quangos in this country and attack the use of quangos to replace bodies elected by local people of doing a disservice to the individuals who serve on those quangos is not to elevate public debate on the issue. There is no
way in which we can express a general opinion regarding the use of nomination, as opposed to the election of members of the many local authorities, if we are to be ruled out of order and told that we are doing a disservice to the individuals concerned. We oppose quangos because we are opposed to a system of nomination as opposed to election; and we are opposed to the effect of that on subsidiarity and democracy in this country. We do not do so out of personal antagonism towards any of the individuals appointed to the quangos.
Lord Dixon-Smith: Perhaps the noble Lord might agree that in this particular instance we are not dealing with the replacement of some local democratic body by a quango. If any body is involved at all in this matter it is the Home Office, which at present has control of NCIS. There is of course at the present time no National Crime Squad.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Exactly, the noble Lord makes my point. What we see here is the creation of a new quango. We are seeing the creation of a new core membership which does not exist now and in which the Secretary of State will have an effective voting majority, as the Minister recognised. That is not a criticism of any of the individuals who are likely to be appointed to that body.
Lord Dixon-Smith: The noble Lord might concede that that is perhaps preferable to control by the Home Secretary himself, which seems to be the alternative.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It is control by the Home Secretary himself. The nominations are made by the Home Secretary. The alternative that we propose is that it should not be the Home Secretary, but that a majority should be appointed by local authorities, the police and chief officers of police. The Minister and her friends have made our case very effectively for us. They made clear that their objection to this degree of democratic control--over something that will be paid for not by central government but by local authorities--is political. They appear to have made the case for these amendments more effectively than I was able to do. I wish to take the opinion of the Committee on Amendment No. 1.
3.55 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 96; Not-Contents, 172.
Addington, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L. [Teller.]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Exmouth, V.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fitt, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hayter, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilpatrick of Kincraig, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lytton, E.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nicol, B.
Parry, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Sainsbury, L.
Scanlon, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
White, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Aberdare, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annan, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Berners, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brookes, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crathorne, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Devonport, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Downshire, M.
Elibank, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Fairfax of Cameron, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Geddes, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gormanston, V.
Goschen, V.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hastings, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inchcape, E.
Inglewood, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Knights, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Layton, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Malmesbury, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mills, V.
Milverton, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mountevans, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nelson, E.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orkney, E.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pender, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Richardson, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
St. Davids, V.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandford, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Westbury, L.
Whitelaw, V.
Wilcox, B.
Young, B.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.05 p.m.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Cox): The next amendment is Amendment No. 2, in the name of the Lord McIntosh of Haringey. I should point out that if Amendment No. 2 is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 3 because of pre-emption.
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