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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Let me remove one, I think, marginal issue. The Minister prayed in aid the fact that the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee made no comment about the authority or chairmanship of the authority.
Baroness Blatch: I should correct that. It is not what I said. I said that it did not query the numbers of powers taken in the Bill by the Secretary of State.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee has to be concerned with the powers delegated by Parliament. It cannot consider the powers taken by the Secretary of State in that way since those are powers which have been created and not taken from Parliament. If the Minister will look again at the scrutiny committee's report, in particular in reference to Clause 89, she will see that although it expresses concern at the fact that intrusive surveillance is to be authorised by chief officers of police, it feels debarred from making any formal comment on it because it does not involve any use of delegated powers. I do not believe that the powers referred to by the Minister are delegated powers from Parliament. They are not within the remit, therefore, of the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee, and could never have been considered by it. The silence of that committee should not be seen as assent to the Government's proposals.
The noble Lord, Lord Renton, attacked my speech rather comprehensively. He said that on reflection I would wish that I had not made it. I shall disappoint him. I do not agree with him that these are simply advisory committees. If the noble Lord reads the Bill carefully, as he usually does, he will see that those committees have extensive powers, although, as I made clear, there are also extensive reserve powers for the Secretary of State. I do not follow his argument that the Home Secretary's responsibility is more closely engaged if he has the power to appoint the chairman from among the core membership. The Secretary of State is closely engaged; it is spelt out in great detail in the Bill, as I made clear. That engagement will not be increased by his ability to impose a member on those 10 people who are the joint core members of the authority.
The Minister raised worries about whether the chairman might be a local authority member or even a police service member. I do not care whether the chairman is a member appointed by the Secretary of State, a police member or a local authority member. I simply care that the chairman should be the best person for the job and should have the confidence of the core membership of the authorities. That is the recipe for effective management and effective steering authorities. What is not a recipe for effective management is that the Secretary of State should have the power to impose a chairman on this body and, quite possibly, someone who would not have commanded the confidence of most members of the body.
The reality of the situation is that the Secretary of State and the Government are politicising the appointment of the chairman of the two bodies. I regret that very much. I do not do so on the grounds that I want someone of a different political party to be the chairman. I do so because I believe that the chairman should be independently chosen, should be seen to be independently chosen, and should have the confidence of the body of which he is to take the chair. I believe that the matter is of such importance that I should take the opinion of the Committee on it.
4.26 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 93; Not-Contents, 158.
Addington, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fitt, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L. [Teller.]
Hayman, B.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hughes, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Inchyra, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilpatrick of Kincraig, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knights, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L. [Teller.]
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nelson, E.
Nicol, B.
Palmer, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay, B.
Redesdale, L.
Richard, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Sainsbury, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Tope, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Weatherill, L.
White, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Aberdare, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brookes, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Courtown, E. [Teller.]
Cox, B.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Crathorne, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Devonport, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Downshire, M.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Fairfax of Cameron, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Geddes, L.
Gisborough, L.
Goschen, V.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardwicke, E.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Home, E.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inchcape, E.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Keyes, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Leigh, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Malmesbury, E.
Marlesford, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mills, V.
Milverton, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Norfolk, D.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orkney, E.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pender, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
St. Davids, V.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandford, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Whitelaw, V.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wise, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.36 p.m.
[Amendments Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 not moved.]
Schedule 2 [Other provisions about Members of the Service Authorities]:
On Question, Whether Schedule 2 shall stand part of the Bill?
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