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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have indicated notice of my intention to oppose the Question only in order to speak on a relatively minor issue and to try to elicit the Government's thinking. I have been approached by the head of one of the regional crime squads who recognises that the regional crime squads will no longer exist. He is concerned about whether they are going to have any say in the appointment of police authority members of the National Crime Squad in particular. I am simply asking whether the Government have given any thought to the issue, which is not covered in the Bill as it is.
It seems to us that there are two possible ways of appointing the individual members, the local authority members of the steering authorities. One would be for it to be done by the local authority associations; the other would be, at any rate in the first instance, for the six members to come from the six regional crime squads. They know each other and may be in a position to make an effective nomination. I take no view on the issue. I recognise in retrospect that I should have given the Minister some warning of the concern which has been expressed to me in case it has not been expressed to her from any other source. However, if she were able to say something about it or, failing that, if she were able to write to me about it, that would be most helpful.
Baroness Blatch: I was about to say that it was an extraordinary proposition to take Schedule 2 out of the Bill, but I shall not have to do that now. On the point raised by the noble Lord, I am sorry that he did not write to me about it because I think we could have dealt with the matter by correspondence, and I shall certainly do that. My understanding is that local authority members of police authorities will be elected from those bodies representing local police authorities and that local authority police authority members will not be appointed by regional crime squads, whatever they are and whoever they are as a collective. However, I shall certainly think about the question the noble Lord has raised today and will come back to him in correspondence.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am most grateful. I could not have asked for more without having given notice. I am sure the noble Baroness will get correspondence from those who are more closely
involved with the issue. She may prefer to wait, before responding to me, until she has seen what other people have to say. This is not in any sense a party political matter and I shall not be pressing my opposition.Clause 2 [General functions of the NCIS Service Authority and NCIS.]:
Baroness Hilton of Eggardon moved Amendment No. 7:
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 7, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 8 and 9. This series of amendments addresses the specific functions of NCIS and the definition of the matters in relation to crime that they deal with. The intention of these amendments is to define more narrowly the areas of crime dealt with by NCIS and limit them to serious crime rather than the broad, vague definition of "criminal intelligence".
There are three very specific reasons why I feel it is important to define more narrowly the functions of NCIS. First, there is a wide variety of interpretations in the Bill as currently drafted and therefore the functions of NCIS could be subject to individual interpretations and distortions. Because of the powers that NCIS officers will have and the position of NCIS at the top of the hierarchy of law enforcement agencies, it is important that it should have a very precisely defined function.
Secondly, if the function were specifically defined so as to deal with serious crime, it would assist NCIS in its relationship with European police forces under the Convention on the European Information System, which is specifically related to serious crime. Its functions would thus be brought into line with, for instance, Article 2(1) of the Europol Convention and other European conventions referring to extremely serious offences. The present rather loose and vague definition of the functions of NCIS would be brought much more into line with what is required by our European partners.
Thirdly, the explicit mention of "serious crime" in relation to NCIS would put it on parallel grounds with the National Crime Squad, the aims of which are to prevent and detect serious crime. Since these two parallel organisations will be set up under the same administrative structure, it seems appropriate that they should deal with exactly the same range of offences. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: This is primarily a drafting matter. I believe the noble Baroness has made a point that deserves further consideration. The word "intelligence" has a number of different meanings in our language, depending on the context. It may mean "very clever" or it may just mean "information". On page 2, in lines 17 and 18, we find the words "information" and "intelligence" appearing in the same sentence. It reads:
If "criminal intelligence" is itself a statutory term of art which by cross-reference one could find a meaning of, this would be a correct way to use the expression; but I believe it could very well read, on the lines suggested by the noble Baroness:
I believe the matter is worth looking at again purely from a drafting point of view.
Baroness Seccombe: It would be helpful if we could define "serious crime" more specifically. One of the problems is that those involved in serious and organised crime are often surrounded by people who are caught up in petty crime, too. If this is a gathering-of-information service, the term "serious crime" may be too narrow a definition.
Page 2, line 17, leave out ("criminal intelligence") and insert ("intelligence necessary for the prevention and detection of serious crime").
"to gather, store and analyse information in order to provide criminal intelligence".
26 Nov 1996 : Column 145
"information necessary for the prevention and detection of serious crime".
"information to provide criminal intelligence".
4.45 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: There is no doubt that the main function of NCIS both now and in the future is to provide intelligence about serious crime. That is what police forces and other law enforcement agencies want, and NCIS exists to provide them with the criminal intelligence support which they need. But the fight against crime must be conducted flexibly and with all the weapons at our disposal. These amendments would restrict that flexibility. We do not think that such a restriction is helpful or desirable. Anything which thwarts the success of tracking down serious crime must be resisted and flexibility will be needed. I shall explain that in a moment.
Although, as my noble friend Lady Seccombe has said, the amendments do not provide a definition of serious crime, I have to assume, in the absence of a definition, that it is intended to apply the definition used in Clause 89(5) of the Bill. The effect of applying this definition to the work of NCIS would be to remove any possibility of its undertaking wider criminal intelligence activities. It would severely limit the support which NCIS could give to local police forces. For example, a group of police forces might be investigating a series of organised crimes which fall outside the definition but where some national co-ordination or analysis of criminal intelligence would be helpful. Intelligence support from NCIS might help to solve these crimes but these amendments would prevent that assistance being given. That cannot possibly be in the public interest.
There is another disadvantage. Under Clause 2(2)(c) of the Bill as presently drafted, NCIS will be able to support police forces and other law enforcement agencies in carrying out their own criminal intelligence activities. The intention is that NCIS will be able to promote common standards for intelligence activities by local forces against any level of crime--that is important--in addition to its specific role in tackling serious crime. This will help to make intelligence activities more effective. These amendments would restrict the role of NCIS and so obstruct this objective.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hilton, referred to the National Crime Squad. Of course, the National Crime Squad will deal with serious crime; but the Bill as presently drafted enables NCIS to deal with serious crime and--this is the important point--other intelligence which requires national analysis and co-ordination. The amendment will reduce that flexibility. We believe that that is important work for NCIS and we would not wish to inhibit it in any way.
Lord Renton: I should be grateful if my noble friend could help me on this because it is important. It seems to me that the words "information" and "intelligence" are used synonymously here and therefore we do not need to use both. One or other of the words would do--preferably "information".
Baroness O'Cathain: Perhaps I can help on this point. Information can surely be made up of many bits of information which, as a composite, give global intelligence on a matter. For example, it can be the building blocks of a specific problem which will give information about how many people were in a place, what they were doing, and all the rest of it. It will give the overall composite picture; namely, the intelligence. That is how I see the difference. I do see a difference between the two terms and I should be grateful if my noble friend the Minister would tell us whether that is the way it is intended.
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