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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am glad that the Minister finally used the words "successful voluntary codes of practice". I hope that she will agree that the model code of practice produced by the Local Government Information Unit is indeed valuable. She indicates by gesture that she does agree, and I am sure that the unit will be pleased with that indication.

On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 99 agreed to.

The Earl of Courtown: I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

26 Nov 1996 : Column CWH53

Official Report of the Committee on the Merchant Shipping and Maritime Security Bill [H.L.]

Tuesday, 26th November 1996.

The Committee met at half-past three of the clock.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Burnham) in the Chair.]

Lord Berkeley moved Amendment No. 58:


After Clause 11, insert the following new clause--

Trans-shipment of other cargoes

(". The Secretary of State shall, no later than 1st November 1997, lay before both Houses of Parliament proposals for a Scheme setting out the requirements to be met by ships involved in the trans-shipment of cargoes, including oil cargoes, to which section 11 of this Act does not apply.").

The noble Lord said: I rise to speak to Amendment No. 58 set down in the name of my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis and the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley. This amendment is in the shape of a probing amendment, continuing what the Committee discussed yesterday about how the various clauses in the Bill will be moved into regulations. The Committee discussed this matter yesterday and the Minister was very helpful in giving us some information about how it might go forward, but I for one am left with a great deal of uncertainty about what will be in all these regulations, and when they may appear. We discussed the matter in relation to klondyking, in terms of moving ships to other locations or safety, and waste facilities.

I thought it might be helpful if I drew to the attention of the Committee something which arose in relation to the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Bill in the last Session, which I took some part in. There were great complications in relation to adjudication procedures for sorting out construction contracts, and there was a provision for a scheme of construction contracts which explained how the provisions of the Act, as it became, would operate in practice. After some prodding the Government very kindly produced a draft scheme for consideration, I believe at the Committee stage in your Lordships' House. It was very much a draft, and the Minister dealing with it said so, but it helped us understand the thinking behind some of the clauses involved and it contributed to significant improvements in the text of the Bill during its passage in your Lordships' House.

We have heard a great deal about the consultation which the Government have had and propose to have with various authorities, but I wonder whether the Minister could help us with some kind of timescale as to when these various regulations might be brought in. Obviously we are very pleased that the Minister is so keen to have consultation, and he is even having two sets of consultation, which is very laudable, but it is

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important that these regulations come into force quite quickly. I for one would be pleased not only to hear a timetable, but also a timetable for some first drafts of what might be in some of the regulations. Although this amendment is directed to Clause 11 concerning klondyking, if the Minister was able to help us on a more general timetable and preliminary text it would be extremely helpful. I beg to move.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): I have listened very carefully to the explanation behind what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was seeking. On the specific point of what his amendment seeks to achieve, I can be helpful and tell the Committee that the Secretary of State already has powers, under Section 130 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, to make regulations in relation to the transfer of cargo stores, bunker fuel or ballast between ships. That addresses the intention, I would say, behind this amendment.

In addition, I can go further and say that my department's Marine Safety Agency is preparing regulations to govern transfer operations between ships, and will consult soon with the shipping industry, local authorities and other interested parties. As we heard yesterday, there is clear justification for extensive consultation on these matters to get the regulations right and to make sure that they are not over-burdensome, but at the same time as effective as possible. That consultation will occur soon, as we are quite close to having the draft regulations on which consultation would occur. We are talking in terms of timescale of around two months, to give the noble Lord the answer to his question about the timetable.

Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. Did I understand him to say that the draft regulations would be available in two months for consideration, possibly at the Report stage of the Bill?

Viscount Goschen: What I indicated was that I hope that, within that timescale and possibly sooner, the Marine Safety Agency will be in a position to go out to consultation on regulations under Section 130 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. The noble Lord might be slightly confused in thinking that it has a direct relation to this Bill; this Bill amends the 1995 Act. However, even without this Bill, even if we were not considering it, there would still be regulation-making activity and the MSA would still be going to consultation on this issue. I cannot be any more specific in terms of timing. I hope that the timescale I have given to the noble Lord is at the outside limit and that the consultation with the industry will occur within that timescale.

Lord Simon of Glaisdale: It struck me that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was less confused than optimistic expecting these regulations to be produced over Christmas.

Lord Berkeley: I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, for pointing that out to me. I probably was being highly optimistic, and I accept that of course a consultation on the Merchant Shipping Act is a different thing. Bearing in mind the whole tenor

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of these discussions, it would be helpful if perhaps the Minister could reflect on the timescales for producing the regulations that we have been discussing so far in this Committee--when they would be produced and how long the consultation would be. I am sure the Minister shares my concern that time is running out, and we would certainly not wish to see anything happen of an accidental nature, or anything else, which could have been prevented by a more speedy process of producing the regulations and consultation.

Viscount Goschen: I believe that I have answered the noble Lord pretty fully. What he is talking about is a different Bill, in effect, for the consultation on the regulations governing the transfer of cargo stores, bunker fuel or ballast. With regard to the regulations that are contained within this Bill, clearly in some instances I have been able to say "as soon as possible" or "directly after Royal Assent"--those sort of words. There are other regulation-making powers and enabling powers, and we have said with some of those powers that we would not want to go forward with them before a certain event occurred. So the general answer to the noble Lord is, "in as timely a manner as the circumstances dictate".

Lord Berkeley: I will not detain the Committee any longer. I shall read very carefully what the Minister has said and reflect on it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12 agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Funding of maritime services]:

Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 59:


Page 27, line 10, at end insert--
(" "counter-pollution capacity" means emergency standby towing capacity and essential clean-up equipment, including aerial spraying, ship spraying and aerial surveillance capability and routine aerial surveillance operations; dispersant stockpiles; beach cleaning and at-sea equipment stockpiles; and cargo-transfer and salvage equipment stockpiles;").

The noble Lord said: This amendment is grouped with Amendment No. 68. The purpose of these amendments is to implement Recommendations 95 to 98 of the Donaldson report and the Government's responses thereto in Command 2766.

Recommendations 95, 96 and 98 call for the establishment of two separate funds: one for port state control and the other for emergency response; and also the publication of clear, separate accounts. In Command 2766 the Government did not demur; in fact, there was support in principle for the publication of separate accounts.

In the debate on 7th November (col. 746 of Hansard) the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, emphasised that the point of having two funds was to ensure that, in so far as the industry does pay, its payments should be ring-fenced and should not be used by the Treasury as an additional source of taxation. The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, also supported this view (at col. 763). We also believe that there should be a

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requirement on the Secretary of State to consult industry periodically on the state of each fund and the levels of charges.

I have every hope that the Government, having made that reply in their responses to the Report, will indeed accept these amendments. I beg to move.


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