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Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, when the Government decide on issues such as whether to join a single currency, we shall not do so on the basis of what some of the advocates of joining or not joining may have as their underlying motivation. We shall take
steps in what we believe to be the correct interests of Britain. The fact that the single market has worked and that we have had a great many advantages from the European Union without having a single currency is one of the arguments put forward by those who say, "You do not have to have a single currency in order to have a single market".
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I apologise to the House because earlier I was under the impression that it was the turn of our side to ask the next question. Is my noble friend aware that the real and essential benefit of the European Union cannot be measured in terms of cost but is the freeing of the soil of Europe from the miseries of another war?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I believe that my noble friend is in a far better position to make that point than I could ever be because of the experiences he had on the European mainland half a century ago. I believe that what he says is very valid and should be taken to heart by your Lordships.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware--
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, let the Back Bench have a go!
Lord Eatwell: My Lords, while considering the issue of costs, does the noble Lord agree that the continuous noisy dissension in Britain's party of government over Europe has, by creating uncertainty, placed a considerable financial burden on British industry in the form of the 1.5 percentage point premium that British industry must pay for its money over and above the borrowing rate on the mainland?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I do not believe that the two things are in any way connected. As far as the Government are concerned, we believe that we should take the decision about economic and monetary union and the next step towards a single currency when the time comes to make that decision, and we shall take into account the interests of the British people. If the underlying point of the noble Lord's question is that his party would not do that, then I shall certainly welcome a clear definition of it.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords--
The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne): My Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, I wonder whether your Lordships feel that we should give a fair crack of the whip to the next Question? I am sure that we shall be returning to the present one.
London Underground: Power Failure
3.25 p.m.
Lord Berkeley asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What were the reasons for the failure of the London Underground system on Wednesday 20th November and what measures are being taken to avoid a recurrence.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): My Lords, this power failure occurred while engineers were testing a compressor at London Underground's Lots Road power station. London Underground, in consultation with Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate, is carrying out an investigation into the incident.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for that Answer. Is he aware that 30,000 people were reported to have been trapped underground for three hours and that many more were severely inconvenienced in struggling home that night? Will he confirm that there is only one power station which normally supplies the whole of the London Underground network? Can he explain why there are no alternatives available and, apparently, no workable procedures for bringing them in in a reasonable time?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, the point is that, with this type of system, when the power goes off it can be restored in some cases relatively quickly. However, there are other considerations which must be taken into account. Checks have to be made, for instance, to make sure that no one has left a train and is walking down the electrified track. There are very strong safety considerations and procedures to follow.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether everyone was evacuated perfectly safely and whether London Underground is to be congratulated on its handling of this incident?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, a great many people were affected by this serious incident. But I can say that of the 276 trains involved, all but 32 of them were standing at platforms at the time of the power failure. The emergency lighting did work properly. Power was available from the national grid within approximately 15 minutes, but it was not brought into play because of the safety considerations that I mentioned earlier.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, bearing in mind the fact that there is huge reliance placed on the London Underground system by millions of people within the capital and that this has been the third major electrical fire over three years, is there not a case for a rather wider inquiry into this matter than the Minister has indicated? Does he agree that the inquiry should be totally independent and that it should be conducted into the causes of this incident and the possibility of any recurrence, bearing in mind the poor state of the
infrastructure of London Underground? Does he further agree that the inquiry should also relate to the scale of the problem which might occur in the future?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I do not believe that the type of inquiry that the noble Lord is seeking is appropriate. There are procedures which come into play when such an incident occurs. The main thing is for the safety procedures to be followed. A full investigation conducted by the Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate, which is the appropriate body, is under way. We feel that that is the best way of finding out exactly what happened on that day and of preventing its recurrence.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, can my noble friend explain why, in this day and age, it is not possible to run London Underground entirely from the national grid and to use the Lots Road power station purely for an emergency?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I am always very interested to hear my noble friend's suggestions, but that is how the system has been designed. It is obviously extremely important for reserve power to be available. As I mentioned to my noble friend, reserve power from the national grid was available within some 15 minutes. Whichever system is used it is possible that there will be breakdowns, and when a new power source has to be introduced it is important to make sure that the safety procedures are properly followed.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is not the Minister feeling somewhat complacent about this matter? Bearing in mind the fact that services are likely to be cut and speed restrictions introduced because of the poor state of the infrastructure--and that is according to London Underground--is it not necessary to look much more widely at this matter rather than to take the somewhat superficial stance with which this inquiry seems to be proceeding?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, that is an entirely unjustified comment. The investigation is in no way superficial. It follows the rigorous procedures that have been introduced to deal with exactly such an incident. There has been a technical failure. The results of that technical failure were dealt with properly. What we now need to know is what caused that technical failure and how to stop it recurring.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, bearing in mind the need to control public expenditure and the fact that we are discussing a soluble technical problem and talking about an industry which has a stable demand, would it not be better to privatise the industry?
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I am always interested to hear proposals for privatisations. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made clear during his comments in Bournemouth last month, following the success of the BR privatisations it may be appropriate to see whether the principles of privatisation can be extended to London Underground. That is at an early stage.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, once the investigation to which the Minister referred has taken place and we have seen the results, would it not then be sensible and perhaps feasible (in the light of what might come out) for the Government to consider whether alternative switching or alternative sources of energy might be desirable? If that is the case, and bearing in mind the Government's increased interest in public transport, does the Minister suppose that the Government might be prepared to promote the funding of such an interchange system? It is plainly the case that millions of people rely on the Underground system every day of the week. It is probably the single most important part of our public service infrastructure.
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