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Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I cannot answer that question for the noble Viscount; however, I can assure him that, but for my labour law reforms, Mr. Blair would not be leader of the Labour Party.

Viscount Chandos: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution on that front as well. I am sure that he looks forward to the consequences of that next May.

Like other noble Lords I was pleased to hear the unequivocal commitment by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister not to rule out joining EMU in the course of the next Parliament. However confident (but not over-confident) we on these Benches may be about the composition of the government by the middle of next year, it would still be damaging to the country's interests for this Government, in the interim, to have taken such a position. It is the national interest that determines our pleasure at this announcement, not, as the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax of Cameron, suggested, any view of party advantage.

I cannot, however, resist asking the noble Lord the Minister a question which he may feel he should refer to his right honourable friend Dr. Mawhinney. Will the Conservative Party allow candidates to stand at the next election with a commitment in their election addresses to oppose the UK joining EMU in the lifetime of the next Parliament? I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer that question this evening, but I am sure he can imagine how much I should enjoy receiving in due course his written reply.

In the meantime, I conclude by noting with approval the Motion tabled by my noble friend Lord Barnett and by looking forward to the continuing vigorous, critical and constructive exploration of the prospects for EMU by this Government and the next.

Lord Beloff: My Lords, before the noble Viscount sits down, perhaps I may ask him a question. I was very

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interested in his idea that there should be some political control of the proposed European central bank. Has he discussed that idea with Herr Tietmeyer?

Viscount Chandos: My Lords, I have not had the pleasure of doing so. However, I hope that colleagues of mine will be doing so in the course of next year.

8.11 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, as always on these occasions we have had a most interesting debate with many excellent and well-informed speeches. I can only re-echo the remark of the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay of Cartvale, who is a newcomer to these debates. She said that she excluded your Lordships from her accusation in her maiden speech that the debate on European issues in the country was not very well-informed.

That certainly cannot be said of the discussions in this House, which also encompass a whole range of views on European issues. We had, as I suppose I must call us, the usual suspects taking part. We almost know what each one of us will say before we stand up. Perhaps that might encourage us to make shorter speeches. I apologise as I do not suppose that mine will be too short since I must answer a fair number of very serious points, including the report of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. The usual suspects are the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, my noble and learned friend Lord Howe, my noble friend Lord Tebbit, and the noble Lord, Lord Peston. It was good to hear in an economic debate a positive and thoughtful speech containing actual proposals emanating from the Front Benches of the party opposite.

We also had some additions, some newcomers, to the usual list of suspects. The most interesting speech in that category--indeed perhaps in any--was that of the noble Lord, Lord Owen. He made a very telling point. He said that you can be keen on Europe and on the idea of a single market and a united Europe, and yet not be keen on the idea of a single currency. Like the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, I thought it a pity that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, was rather uncharitable in his comments on the noble Lord's speech, harking back perhaps to previous battles on other issues.

The portrayal by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, of the English as saying, "We are right and you on the Continent are always wrong", is just what irritates me most about the Euro-fanatics. Sometimes when I come to these debates I listen to the Euro-fanatics and I become a Europhobe; then I listen to the Europhobes--as my noble friend Lord Tebbit will be unhappy to hear--and I do not quite become a Euro-fanatic again but I move back to the position, as I have said a number of times at this Dispatch Box, that the European Union is a very important part of our economic and political make-up and we absolutely have to be there, whether or not we are in an EMU and whether or not an EMU comes about. I did think that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, was uncharitable. However, I was pleased to hear his complaint that the English seem to take the view that they are always right. As the noble Baroness,

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Lady Ramsay of Cartvale, and I know full well, that is not the case--but it may well be the case that the Scots are always right.

The Liberal Democrat position which came through in the three speeches made from those Benches, by the noble Lords, Lord Hooson, Lord Taverne and Lord Wallace, was almost that if the continentals say something then they must inevitably be right and we should jolly well just bow down to them. As I have said before to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, it is that kind of attitude which I am afraid is turning an unfortunate number of the British public against the European ideal. Those who are in favour of our continued membership of the Community have to be careful about the language that they use. Indeed, I commend to noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches the speech of their noble friend Lord Dahrendorf in the debate that we had on this subject in July. I thought it a very interesting and thoughtful speech. It certainly gave me cause for concern when I heard the issues that he raised from the position of influence that he once held inside the Commission.

We heard those who were fanatically pro-European; and we heard those who are against. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, spoke of discipline. I wonder mildly--especially perhaps in answer to the question put by the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos--what Dr. Mawhinney might do in relation to different candidates in the Conservative Party taking different views on this issue. As I think everybody knows, there will be Conservative candidates standing at the next election who will take different views on some of these important issues. That is what a democratic party is about. It is not like the Labour Party, where I understand there is now more than a proposal--indeed there is a Tony Blair red card system of discipline. I wonder whether it will be extended to the Benches opposite. If it is, I shall be very worried for the future of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington. Perhaps he may have to find somewhere else in the House to sit.

I shall not refer to every speech. That would take too long. Also, many noble Lords reiterated in different ways a number of the same issues arising from the committee's report. I shall merely say to the noble Earl, Lord Longford, to the noble Lord, Lord Roll of Ipsden, and to my noble friend Lord Beloff that I always admire those speakers who stand up and speak without notes. All three noble Lords made interesting and stimulating contributions. I found the discussion of my noble friend Lord Beloff about American history very interesting. I know that many people think it easy to compare Europe with America, but I have never felt it was a sensible comparison. With far greater expertise than I, my noble friend Lord Beloff explained clearly why we should not make too ready comparisons.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Roll, that I can remember the days when the Government's line on joining the ERM was that we would do so "when the time was ripe", or a similar phrase. I also remember all the great and the good who wanted us to join. They never made any qualifications about the level at which we should join; it was "You join" and, like 1066 And All That, it would be a Good Thing.

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Perhaps I may take my noble friend Lord Haslam up on the point about competitiveness. One of the problems which concerns the Government and which I have expressed from this Dispatch Box on a number of occasions is that the European Union does not seem to be worried about competitiveness. That is why most of the members have unemployment figures markedly higher than ours and going in the wrong direction, while ours are going in the right direction. It is not just a matter of competitiveness inside the European Community but competitiveness in a wider world, including the Pacific Rim and the emergence of China in the first years of the next century.

Lord Haslam: My Lords, if I may intervene, I made the point that it was not a question of competitiveness but that we believe that we can have our cake and eat it. We wish to have all the benefits of the single market without being in the single currency. That would be the focal point, together with the fact that we have abandoned the ERM, we have opted out of the social contract and all that. We may believe that the average German industrialist will benignly see us, first, receive inward investment on that basis and, secondly, compete with us in the market on that basis, but he will clearly not. At the end of the day, it will be the source of the biggest confrontation we face. We cannot have our cake and eat it in this situation.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I do not wish to go into a long discussion with my noble friend on the point. The danger of the path he suggests we should take is that we should impose on ourselves the same social costs as the Germans, French and Italians have imposed on themselves. Then we may see some of the same unemployment problems that have been caused there. That worries me.

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