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Lord Gladwin of Clee: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that detailed explanation of the order. We on this side of the House wish it a fair wind. It is clear from the documentation that many of the requirements under the 1951 Act have been overtaken by subsequent legislation. I am grateful that she made reference to the general product safety regulations. The response from the Minister, Mr Ian Taylor, is very helpful.
I also note that the Fire Officers Association is quite happy with the provisions of the order, and although the National Consumer Council was invited, it was not able in time to submit its views about the new order. But the committee is satisfied that the necessary consultation has taken place and therefore, as I said, this side of the House wish it a fair wind.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Firearms (Amendment) Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and to be printed.
Land Registration Bill [H.L.]
4.13 p.m.
Lord Browne-Wilkinson: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.--(Lord Browne-Wilkinson.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Lord Coleraine moved an amendment:
The noble Lord said: When I supported this Bill at Second Reading, I had given notice to the noble and learned Lord and to my noble friend Lady Trumpington that I considered that the Bill gave an appropriate opportunity to revisit the 1988 Land Registration Act. That Act opened up the Land Registry for the first time. It gave public access to most of the information about the ownership of land in England and Wales held in the registry. A notable exception at that time, and now, is that copies of registered leases held in the registers remain secret.
The case that I made at Second Reading--I need not repeat it now--was that much water had passed under the bridge since 1988 and that it was now appropriate to reconsider the matter as it was left then. There would be great benefit to all actual and potential flat owners if they and those who advise them had access as of right to copies of registered residential flat leases. This amendment would provide for that change.
In responding for the Government at Second Reading, my noble friend regretted that time had not permitted an answer to be prepared and given to me. She undertook to ask the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to write to me with a substantive reply. I have now received that reply. I shall be happy to provide any Members of the Committee with a copy of his letter. My noble and learned friend wrote that the Government could not support an amendment to this Bill to compel the Land Registry to provide copies of residential flat leases as of right. However, he reminded me that the registrar has a statutory discretion, which is occasionally exercised, to provide copy leases in cases where there is no right of inspection. My noble and learned friend writes also:
I found that encouraging. It may well be that my noble friend will be able to satisfy me that my concerns can be met in that way. I look forward to her response. In the meantime, I beg to move.
Baroness Trumpington: I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Coleraine for giving the Chamber an opportunity to hear what my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has been able to offer as an interim measure to go towards meeting the noble Lord's point about access to copy leases held by HM Land Registry. Further details will be addressed by the joint working group which is considering land registration. Meanwhile, as I said during the Second Reading debate, the Government wish this short but useful Bill a fair wind for the remainder of its passage through this Chamber and in due course in another place.
Lord Browne-Wilkinson: I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine, having received that assurance, will be able to withdraw the amendment, so as to enable this Bill, which everybody agrees is valuable, to go through swiftly. Otherwise, we have to move to Report stage formally, which will hold it up. I trust that the assurances from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor may be sufficient.
Lord Coleraine: I am very pleased to reassure the noble and learned Lord. I am very satisfied with the
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Remaining clauses and schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment; Report received.
Lord Goff of Chieveley: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.--(Lord Goff of Chieveley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Obtaining a money transfer by deception]:
Lord Donaldson of Lymington moved Amendment No. 1:
The noble and learned Lord said: In moving this Amendment, I shall speak, with the leave of the Committee, to all the amendments in my name, since they form a cohesive and, I believe, coherent whole.
I made clear at Second Reading that my interest in the Bill arises from the fact that I am chairman of the Financial Law Panel. That is a non-profit making body set up by the Bank of England and the Corporation of London to act, in effect, as a specialist law commission for the wholesale financial markets of the United Kingdom.
As the Committee knows, in July this year, the House, acting in its judicial capacity heard the Preddy appeals. Those appeals concerned electronic money transfers as part of mortgage frauds. The decision that no criminal offence had been committed surprised many in the legal profession, though I should make it clear that I do not for one moment suggest that it was wrong. It did, however, have the practical effect of decriminalising some fraudulent electronic money transfers. It also had the effect of decriminalising the fraudulent electronic transfer of bonds and securities in so far as they are indistinguishable from money transfers.
This Chamber, in its legislative capacity, is now being invited to close one barrel of what is in truth a double-barrelled loophole in the law. My amendments seek to close the other barrel of the Preddy loophole. They are designed to be simple and discrete. They add "investments", where appropriate, and substitute "value" for "money", thereby including both money and bonds and securities.
The Law Commission, in its admirable report which gave birth to this Bill, sought to confine its provisions to what may be described, without disrespect, as the "Preddy mischief". Unfortunately it failed to appreciate that the electronic transfer of investments is a significant part of that mischief. That that should be the case may seem surprising unless one appreciates the way in which the wholesale financial markets operate, not only in London, but also worldwide.
If any physical manifestation of the bonds or securities is created by the issuer--and sometimes it is not--it or a promise to issue on request is conveyed to a custodian bank or similar institution. Thereafter, all dealings in the bonds or securities are affected by credit and debit entries in the accounts of the transferor or transferee kept with the custodian. No physical transfer ever takes place and the whole process is indistinguishable from the processes involved in a transfer of foreign currency held to the credit of a bank account.
My noble friend Lord Alexander of Weedon, who is unable to be present today, tells me that the banking community considers that the change I have proposed would make a valuable contribution on the footing that it could be dealt with as a discrete point which will not jeopardise the speedy passage of the Bill. The Bank of England expressed a similar view. The point is indeed discrete. The amendments cannot adversely affect any legitimate transaction since the Bill, with or without amendments, is solely concerned with dishonesty.
I accept that the amendments may cover some transactions which would fall within the criminal law notwithstanding Preddy. But that is equally true of some money transfers which will be covered by the Bill. So the only true objection to my amendments is their potential effect upon the speedy passage of the Bill. That is a matter which is exclusively within the control of the Government. I hoped and expected a degree of co-operation and joint endeavour which could and would have achieved that objective. I have been gravely disappointed. Instead, I have been told that this is all very complicated and difficult, which it is not. I have been told that my amendments could have unforeseen adverse consequences. No one can give a guarantee concerning the unforeseen; but for the reasons I have given I can guarantee that they will not be adverse.
I accept that the Home Office, in its responsibility for the reform of the criminal law, has unrivalled experience of legislating in haste and repenting at leisure. However, I can assure the Committee that this is one of those rare cases where it would not be at risk.
No one doubts the urgent need for this Bill to become law; no one would wish to impede its progress in any way. Proper consideration of a limited widening of the scope of the Bill could have been achieved if the Government's attitude had been different. As matters stand, it seems that I must reluctantly accept that, so far
After Clause 3, insert the following new clause--
Inspection of leases of residential flats
(" . After subsection (1)(a) of section 112 of the Land Registration Act 1925 (inspection of register and other documents) insert--
"(aa) copies, in the custody of the Registrar, of leases of residential flats referred to in the register, and".")
"The Registrar accepts that, since that section was replaced in 1988, circumstances have shown that there is sometimes a need to see copy leases of flats other than the one owned by the applicant and there have been some cases where the discretion has been exercised accordingly.
"Following consideration of the points you made in the debate, the Registrar proposes that there should be a liberal use of the discretion so that anyone who can show an interest in obtaining copy leases of residential flats may do so upon payment of the usual fee. Without being limited to such cases, the exercise of the discretion would encompass any person involved in a process of collective enfranchisement or who is interested either as an existing lessee or as an intending one in a flat in a purpose built block of flats or a converted building."
4.18 p.m.
Page 1, line 7, leave out ("money") and insert ("value").
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