House of Lords
Monday, 9th December 1996.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers--Read by the Lord Bishop of Carlisle.
Gulf War Forces: Medical Confidentiality
The Countess of Mar asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Under what circumstances solicitor/client privilege and medical practitioner/patient confidentiality may be broken in the case of members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces who served in Operation Granby.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe): My Lords, solicitor/client privilege is recognised in law. A solicitor cannot be compelled to disclose information told to him by his client. A medical practitioner is under a legal and ethical duty to respect the confidence of his patient. This duty can, however, be broken in certain circumstances--for example, by a court order--where the interests of justice require it. I am not aware, however, of any circumstances involving Gulf War veterans where either solicitor/client privilege or medical practitioner/patient confidentiality has been broken.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that the organophosphate pesticide investigation team set up by the MoD in October has been calling sick servicemen for interviews at nine o'clock in the morning; that many of those servicemen have to rise at between four o'clock and five o'clock in the morning to get there; that the investigation team has been grilling them for three hours and then telling them that if they do not hand over what they have handed to their solicitors and medical practitioners, they will be investigated for dereliction of duty? If the MoD is serious in its investigation of the OP question, is it satisfied that it will obtain co-operation from servicemen who are treated in that way? It amounts to bullying.
Earl Howe: My Lords, there should be no question of individuals being pressured or coerced into giving information. That is not the way for these important matters to be taken forward. My clear understanding is that all interviews have been voluntary; witnesses have not in any way been compelled to attend; and evidence has not been taken on oath. Those most concerned about their condition have been interviewed in most detail, and therefore at some length. I stress that none of the interviews was adversarial or hostile, according to the information that I have. I understand that almost all witnesses were keen to talk to the team. I am confident
that we shall have a sufficient number of ex-servicemen coming forward to enable our research to proceed satisfactorily.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that this confidentiality, as with legal confidentiality, may always be broken at the request of the client--in this case, the patient?
Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend is right. What however should not happen is for the doctor or the lawyer to break that confidentiality without the explicit consent of the patient or the client.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, will the Minister rebut or confirm the allegations made by the noble Countess, Lady Mar? If they are true, and if members of a team inside the MoD have been compelling people under duress, or summoning people at unsocial hours, to give evidence, will he then say whether it is the Government's policy to do that kind of thing? If not, will he then say that he will look into his own department to ensure that it does not happen again?
Earl Howe: My Lords, I have already indicated that the noble Countess's allegations run completely contrary to my understanding. They do not represent government policy. What we must do, of course, is encourage those who believe that they are affected by their Gulf War service to come forward. That is the way that I have understood it to proceed, and I believe that that is the way that it is proceeding. Naturally, I take seriously the noble Countess's allegations and I treat them with the seriousness that I always do. I shall look closely into what she has said.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree with me that this is an issue of honour concerning soldiers who have fought, and that it is of the utmost importance that he should be able to assure the House that they have been treated with all fairness? There is an issue here of morale and of a debt of honour.
Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend is quite right in all that she says. It would be retrograde were pressure to be brought to bear on ex-servicemen who have served their country well in trying circumstances when the whole object of the exercise is to get to the bottom of the allegations, which have been widespread, and to assist those very servicemen in their suffering.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have had the opportunity to examine the correspondence that is in the possession of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and that in my view it supports the allegations that are contained in her question? Will the Minister give the House an undertaking that her allegations will be examined extremely carefully by those above this particular investigation unit, and that a full report will be made to the House, answering in detail the questions put forward by the noble Baroness?
Earl Howe: My Lords, I am happy to give the noble Lord those assurances. If the noble Countess will furnish me with the information that she has I shall personally look into the matter.
Earl Russell: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he also check whether this might be a case of some interviews being more voluntary than others?
Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Earl may have a point in the context of the noble Countess's allegations, although I do not accept that pressure has necessarily been brought to bear on anyone.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, the noble Earl has assured the House that he and his department will investigate fully the noble Countess's allegations. He has also given an assurance that a report will be made and that this House will be informed of its conclusions. May we expect that report before Christmas?
Earl Howe: My Lords, I shall look into the matter with all speed, but clearly I cannot give a specific undertaking about timing. I hope that I shall be able to report to the House prior to the Christmas Recess.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his reply. I am willing to show him what information I have, as he has suggested. Is he aware that all that these people want is the diagnosis and treatment of their problems? If that had been done earlier there would be no case for litigation.
Earl Howe: My Lords, no writs have yet been served on the Ministry of Defence and no allegations of negligence or even causation have been made. I believe that while we all wish for matters to be processed more speedily, the Ministry has acted with speed and efficiency. I hope that they will be resolved sooner rather than later.
The Water Companies
2.45 p.m.
Lord Dubs asked Her Majesty's Government:
- When they will announce extra powers for the Environment Agency to require the water companies to draw up long-term sustainable water resources plans and drought contingency plans.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are at present considering proposals from the Environment Agency for new powers to require water companies to draw up and submit drought contingency plans and to publish water resource plans. A consultation paper will be published in due course.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware that today six environmental organisations have published a booklet entitled High and Dry, dealing with the impact on wildlife of taking
too much water from our environment? Has he had an opportunity to look at that booklet and, if so, what is his response?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am deeply grateful to the noble Lord for asking the penultimate question. I have not had an opportunity to look at the booklet and therefore I am unable to give him a response. I doubt whether, even if I had looked at the booklet, I should have been able to give a considered response at this time. I shall certainly look at the publication.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: My Lords, will the publications which the Minister promised in reply to the Question include a planning policy guidance note? If not, would it not be a good idea to have such a document on the subject of water resources?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, after last year's drought my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said that an inquiry would be made into water resources. That was done and the findings were published in a booklet called Water Resources and Supply: Agenda for Action. We stated that the Government would bring forward modifications to the legal framework for water resources and supply if scope for further refinements were to emerge. The Environment Agency has made suggestions and we propose to issue a consultation document on them. As a result of the responses to those suggestions we shall decide what action shall be taken. However, whether that includes guidance or codes of practice remains to be seen.
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