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Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for including a purpose clause along the lines that I suggested in Committee. Although I say that, as the Lord Chancellor pointed out this was very much the idea of the Select Committee on Delegated Powers. I respectfully agree with the Lord Chancellor that the eight principles set out by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in his report are admirably encapsulated in this brief statement of purpose. I commend the drafters of this amendment for their skill.
Lord Irvine of Lairg: My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. It is as anodyne and therefore as good and effective a general purpose clause as one could imagine. I support it. However, the devil is in the detail.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am grateful for the support that this purpose clause has received. I hope that we may be able to keep the devil at bay so far as possible.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Irvine of Lairg moved Amendment No. 2:
After Clause 1, insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) There shall be established a Civil Justice Council, the members of which shall include members of the judiciary and representatives of the Lord Chancellor's Department, the legal professions, court administrators, consumer organisations, advice agencies and other users of the courts.
(2) The functions of the Civil Justice Council shall include--
(a) to keep under review the civil justice system,
(b) to identify changes to the civil justice system directed to enhancing and improving its status and effectiveness,
(c) to commission research into proposed changes to the civil justice system,
(d) to refer proposals for changes to the civil justice system to the Civil Procedure Rule Committee and the Lord Chancellor, and
(e) to assist the Head of Civil Justice in coordinating proposed changes to the civil justice system and in monitoring their impact.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is not the amendment that I moved earlier--that is, Amendment No. 2 in Committee--to establish a civil justice council. On reflection, I preferred Amendment No. 3 in Committee in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Hacking and Lord Thomas of Gresford. As I indicated in Committee, their amendment is a better expression of the general principle of what is required. Therefore, it is that amendment which I have tabled and to which I now speak. It stands also in the names of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford.
In Committee we had full discussion on the need for a civil justice council. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in both his interim and final reports advocated the establishment of a continuing body with responsibility for overseeing and co-ordinating the implementation of his proposals. The noble and learned Lord expressed his disappointment in his final report that that important step had not yet been taken. He repeated his concern in our Second Reading debate on 5th November when he said:
As I said in our discussions in Committee, I found the responses of the Lord Chancellor disappointing. In essence, they amounted to the fact that he appreciated the need for some consultative machinery to drive forward the required reforms of the civil justice system but he was not yet satisfied that a civil justice council as proposed was the most effective way forward. He thought there was much to be said for a co-ordinated structure of the existing court user committees, but that we should await the working through in practice of the proposals of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, before we could see what sort of structure would be most appropriate. He said, in terms, that there is something to be said for trying to see, as we work through the proposals of my noble and learned friend,
The amendment to which I speak appears to me to provide clearly for what is required; to ensure that all interests in the delivery of justice by the civil courts are represented; and to define its functions properly. If the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has any specific criticisms of the form of the amendment, I welcome hearing those in his response.
In Committee I sought to put the issue in this way.
I agree with the criticism offered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, in Committee of the proposition that what is required is no more than a consultative body or machinery. What is necessary is to have a high-powered body representative of all the relevant interests which monitors the effectiveness of the new rules in practice and measures their success against the objectives which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, defined in his two reports and which have commanded general acceptance. I beg to move.
Lord Ackner: My Lords, in anticipation that the Master of the Rolls, my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf, might not be able to be present because of pressure of work elsewhere I came well briefed with the speech that he made at the memorial lecture. However, I shall not need to refer to any part of that because he is present. If I had known he were there, I should have asked him to speak before me. Perhaps he would like to do so now.
Lord Woolf: My Lords, I am grateful for the Civil Procedure Bill. I acknowledged at Second Reading the debt that I owe to the Lord Chancellor for the way in which he has carried forward the reforms for the civil justice system that I recommended in my report. I believe that they are much needed.
However, like other noble Lords I was concerned at the absence of a civil justice council. I recognise the reasons that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor wishes to retain flexibility. It seems to me that an amendment on the lines proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, would meet the needs of the council, and at the same time accommodate the flexibility which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor seeks to retain.
I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Ackner for giving way to me and for suggesting that I should refer to a lecture for which I was responsible. I can assure noble Lords that I have no intention of inflicting that lecture upon them. The noble Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, summarised the points that I sought to make in the lecture.
Perhaps I may condescend to one matter of detail. It may be that I am particularly remiss, bearing in mind the office that I hold. However, on re-reading the amendment today, it occurred to me that perhaps subsection (2)(e) could support a modest amendment. It is not only the head of civil justice who could be assisted by the civil justice council. I suggest that other members of the senior judiciary would be assisted. Indeed, I apprehend that all heads of divisions and the head of the Court of Appeal would also be assisted. Perhaps at a later stage consideration might be given to deleting the reference to the "Head of Civil Justice", who has yet to be recognised in any statutory form, inserting in its place "the senior judiciary". I hope that that might meet the purpose.
The ability of a justice system to be resistant to reform in ways that cannot be anticipated is astonishing. A council of the kind proposed would have different roles to perform at different times. However, I believe that it would make a substantial contribution, first, by co-ordinating the efforts of many people to move forward our civil justice system and, secondly, in ensuring that the momentum which has already started continues--I would hope at an increasing pace.
"I see the council as a central plank to my recommendations ... It is also the necessary companion to a compact small rules committee".--[Official Report, 5/11/96; col. 622.]
The noble and learned Lord has repeated those views with equal strength in his recent Tom Sergant memorial lecture.
"The function of the council would be to maintain a continuous overview of the system, to highlight the need for changes, to commission research, to put ideas to the new rule committee and the Lord Chancellor's Department, to assist the head of civil justice"
that is to say, to offer him assistance by way of advice--
"to co-ordinate initiatives, both through practice directions and practice guides, and to monitor the impact of changes on the ground. An important area should be the development of pre-proceeding protocols, designed to help cases to settle before litigation has started, through the development of alternative dispute resolution approaches, in particular mediation, and through practice directions and guides.
"I see the key point of Lord Woolf's proposal as this: in essence, the civil justice council should take up where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, leaves off. The way ahead should be a permanent body specifically charged with monitoring and progressively improving the civil justice system. The council would be a vehicle for contributions from all interest groups. It could work with user groups in local courts, and in Divisions of the High Court, to identify problems and to recommend reforms. It should provide a useful source of advice for the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, the senior judiciary and the rule committee [and the head of civil justice.] In essence, I suggest, its task would be to ensure that what Lord Woolf has recommended actually happens in practice".--[Official Report, 20/11/96; cols. CWH 9-10.]
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