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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: The Minister referred to statutory sick pay as regards both disease and injury cases and to the six-month period. Therefore, he said, the two conditions were treated in the same way. That was the point I was seeking to establish. The Minister helps me make my point more elegantly than I was able to do. We could argue about the diagnosis point but I am sure that one could produce a straightforward bureaucratic--as I would term it--procedure so that people knew where they stood. However, the basic issue
remains that there is considerable overlap in some areas--for example, poisoning--of diseases and injuries. The Minister has at no point addressed that matter. He says that if we were to accept this amendment greater disparities would arise than is currently the position under the Bill. To enable me to reflect on what he said and to determine whether we wish to revisit this issue on Report, will the Minister write to me explaining in what way he believes that greater disparities and greater injustices would arise if the amendment were accepted? That would be a helpful basis on which to consider whether we wish to revisit the matter.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: Yes.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: The Minister has said yes. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 [Applications for certificates of recoverable benefits]:
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish moved Amendment No. 8:
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 8 I wish to speak also to Amendment No. 10. Clause 4 is intended to provide for the issue of, and applications for, certificates of recoverable benefit. We have introduced these two amendments to make it clear that it is the duty of the compensator to apply for a certificate of recoverable benefit, and that when an application is received from a compensator a certificate must be issued within the prescribed period. Under Clause 5 the Secretary of State must copy certificates to victims when they are issued. That mirrors the position under the current scheme. I commend the two amendments to the Committee. I shall listen to what the noble Baroness has to say about Amendment No. 11 and respond after that. I beg to move.
Baroness Turner of Camden: As the Minister said, the clause sets out the arrangements for the compensator to obtain a certificate of benefit paid from the DSS. I do not believe that we on this side of the Chamber have any objection to the two amendments that he moved.
However, we believe that it is necessary for all the parties concerned to know exactly where they stand, including, most importantly from our viewpoint, the accident victim. We do not believe that the clause is clear as to the right of the claimant to be entitled to apply for a certificate and to receive it within a given period, on much the same basis as does the compensator. I believe that the period is four weeks. Unless the right is allowed to the victim, he and his advisers--his union and lawyers--would be in a disadvantageous position relative to the compensator in planning the strategy to be followed in dealing with the claim.
The issue is revisited in Amendment No. 14. Unless the right is allowed to the complainant, we believe that he will be disadvantaged. While we have no objections to the amendments just moved by the Minister, we believe it necessary for there to be an arrangement that the claimant has an entitlement on the same basis as the compensator. Those are the reasons for the amendment.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for explaining her amendment. Perhaps I may explain how the situation will work. Under the present scheme only the compensator may apply for the certificate. However, victims are sent copies of the certificates issued by the unit at the same time as they are sent to the compensator. Therefore the victim receives a copy of the same certificate as does the compensator, at the same time.
The compensation recovery unit also runs a benefit inquiry service which can provide victims with details of all benefits that have been paid with the exception of statutory sick pay. The unit has an internal target to respond to a benefit inquiry within 30 days of receipt.
It would seem unnecessarily bureaucratic to add to the scheme the further complication that certificates of recoverable benefit--a document with legal force--must also be issued to victims on demand. I am concerned that the implications of such a change would require significant consequential changes to be made to other clauses of the Bill. For example, we would need to make similar requests of victims concerning the provision of information to those placed on a compensator. Certain obligations are placed on the compensator which are not placed on the victim. It seems inappropriate to create such a raft of duplicated procedures when victims are copied certificates at the same point as compensators.
We are not aware that the present arrangements cause any particular difficulties. Nor are we aware that victims are failing to obtain all the information they need about recoverable benefits. Indeed the Select Committee's inquiry revealed widespread satisfaction with the service provided by the compensation recovery unit.
In summary, a victim can contact the benefit inquiry service and have details provided. However, perhaps more important is the fact that if the compensator applies for a certificate, when that certificate is sent to the compensator it is also automatically sent to the victim without the victim having to make an application or to do anything else.
With that explanation and assurance on how the system works, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Turner of Camden: I thank the Minister for that explanation. However, I can see no reference in the Bill to the procedures to which the Minister referred. I do not see it stated anywhere that the victim receives a copy. Presumably, if the victim does not receive a copy, he can do something about it; he has some status from which to complain, or whatever. If he receives a copy, he at least knows the situation. I am glad that the Minister accepts that the victim has to know at the same
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: Perhaps I can help the noble Baroness, having quickly found the right place in the Bill, I think. As the noble Baroness knows from previous discussions on legal matters, I am always a little reticent to act as a great legal authority in case my surname becomes confused with others who are in a better position.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: The collective Lords Mackay!
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: Yes, the collective Lords Mackay. I thank the noble Baroness.
Baroness Turner of Camden: I am much obliged for that explanation.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Turner of Camden moved Amendment No. 9:
The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 9 ensures that the Secretary of State issues a written acknowledgment of receipt of the application as soon as practicable after receipt of an application form.
Clause 21 refers to the requirement for an acknowledgment. The intention is to make it incumbent on the Secretary of State to issue a written acknowledgment as soon as is practicable for him to do so. I can see no other reference in this section of the Bill to acknowledgment being necessary.
I note that the Minister's Amendment No. 12 has the same effect. The only difference is that in our amendment we state,
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: Perhaps I may respond to the noble Baroness and speak to my three amendments which are grouped with Amendment No. 9.
As the noble Baroness said, the amendment requires the Secretary of State to issue an acknowledgment of the receipt of an application for certificates of recoverable benefits. Under the current scheme the regulations make a similar requirement.
However, it has been suggested, and the Government have agreed, that it would be more appropriate that the requirement to issue an acknowledgment be provided on the face of the legislation, and the three amendments in my name are designed to achieve that. I am sure that the Committee will have noted that the Government amendments do not include a requirement that an acknowledgment should be issued as soon as practicable. However, we do not believe that it is necessary to set out such a requirement on the face of the Bill since the compensation recovery unit already has an internal target to issue acknowledgments within seven days.
Amendment No. 12 makes clear on the face of the Bill that the Secretary of State is obliged to issue an acknowledgment of a compensator's application for a certificate. That is exactly what the noble Baroness asks me to do. Under the present scheme, this requirement is provided in regulations.
Under Clause 21 of the Bill, which relates to cases where the Secretary of State has failed to issue a certificate, it is one of the conditions for a payment to be exempt from benefit recovery process that a compensator must have in his possession an acknowledgment of receipt of his application for a certificate. It has been suggested, and we agree, that it would be appropriate, therefore, for the requirement to issue an acknowledgment also to be provided on the face of the legislation. Amendment No. 12 meets that concern.
Amendment No. 44 removes the regulation-making power relating to acknowledgments from Clause 21. I trust that a regulation-making power biting the dust will please the noble Earl.
Amendment No. 45 corrects a reference in Clause 21 to the amended Clause 4.
I am not inserting quite the words that the noble Baroness seeks. However, I hope that she accepts that I am taking on board the spirit of her amendment. With the assurance that the internal target for the compensation recovery unit is within seven days, I hope that she will withdraw her amendment and that the Committee can accept my amendment.
Page 2, line 24, after ("person") insert ("("the compensator")").
"Where the Secretary of State issues a certificate of recoverable benefits, he must provide the information contained in the certificate to (a) the person who appears to him to be the injured person".
I believe that that is the right place in the Bill. I hope that it reassures the noble Baroness.
5.15 p.m.
Page 2, line 25, at end insert--
("( ) As soon as practicable after receipt of an application for a certificate of recoverable benefits, the Secretary of State shall issue a written acknowledgement of receipt of the application.").
"As soon as practicable after receipt of an application".
Therefore I prefer the wording of Amendment No. 9 to that of Amendment No. 12. However, I am willing to listen to what he says on the issue. I beg to move.
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