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Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, will the noble Earl give way? I am obliged to him. The point I was making was that the Government announced their intention in advance of the publication of the Cullen Report. That was the criticism I made of them. But of course it is always the responsibility of the Government to act responsibly because they are the Government.
Earl Peel: My Lords, that may well be the case, but I suggest--
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend will allow me to intervene because it is important to deal with the point here and now. The Government did not announce anything before the Cullen report was made available to them. There may have been interesting speculation on what the Government would say; but they did not anticipate the report. They received it and then responded. I hope that that will be noted for the record.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her remarks. I think it would be best if we rested on that. We have before us now a Bill which will offer some refuge to those people who wish to continue their sport. It is not perhaps what they would have liked, but at least it is a reasonable compromise.
The truth behind this whole ghastly affair is that it could and should have been avoided, as other noble Lords have already said. I believe it begs this question: whether we would not be more sensible to consider yet again, as we did in 1988 after the Hungerford case, the question of whether it would not be prudent to consider
the introduction of an independent licensing authority, similar to the DVLC, which operates in Swansea, dealing with all motor vehicle licences.I am bound to say that most organisations and individuals with whom I have spoken on the matter, who clearly know a great deal on the subject, are in favour of such a scheme. I know that the idea is very much supported by the Firearms Consultative Committee, which is chaired by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury. The obvious advantages would be that we would have real specialists dealing with the problem; it is true to say that not all the police involved are real specialists. We would have consistency, which we certainly do not have at the moment, throughout all the regions. I believe that it would be more efficient and it would certainly save police time.
As I understand it, it is the cost that has been regarded as the major obstacle to such a suggestion, but I would have thought that if one were to introduce a higher initial cost for licensing fees, making sure that the licensing fee lasted over a longer period, this could overcome the high establishment costs of such an institution. I would be grateful for an indication from my noble friend the Minister whether the Government would consider this seriously. It very much goes along the lines my noble friend Lord Marlesford was suggesting in his speech. I thoroughly agree with what he said on that matter.
Moving on to the question of compensation, I accept and welcome the fact that the Government have moved some way on this very thorny matter. There is no doubt that other noble Lords have quite clearly stated that there will be businesses which are likely to suffer considerably. I do feel that more will have to be done to help them. As Sir Jerry Wiggin put it in another place (at col. 1069 of Hansard for 4th December):
- "the Bill will ... deprive many dealers, manufacturers, agents, transport companies, suppliers and others [of] their livelihoods".
- "it is a matter of morality",
I should like to pick up on "morality". I believe that Sir Jerry is absolutely right on this.
In my capacity as president of the Gun Trade Association Ltd, I attended an open meeting in Birmingham quite recently to discuss this Bill, and I witnessed at first hand cases where people's livelihoods will be seriously affected by this Bill. I heard their frustrations, I listened to their concerns and their utter disbelief that, after years of building up a business, it could be destroyed or curtailed at a stroke--just as we are witnessing at the moment--and through absolutely no fault of their own.
This is something we must give time to. There is not the opportunity now to discuss it; but when we come to Committee stage, I am sure that we are going to hear a lot more on this particular subject.
My noble friend Lord Kimball rejected the question of disassembly. I am no expert in these matters. All I am told, (and I have to believe it to be the case) is
that certainly up to 95 per cent. of weapons can be disassembled effectively; whether that is going to answer the question from a security point of view, I am not at the moment in a position to judge. However, I am told by experts in the British Shooting Sports Council that this remains a very real option and a very sensible option, one which would save money and would be easy to put into effect. I reserve judgment on that and again, I believe that this is something we must consider very seriously when we discuss this Bill in Committee.The Government have made improvements to the Bill in another place, and I welcome them; but I am particularly pleased that the Government have accepted that small calibre pistols may be stored with a registered firearms dealer in addition to a pistol club. This could save small clubs very considerable cost. However, I ask my noble friend to confirm that I have interpreted the speeches made in another place correctly and that this is exactly what the Government are hoping to achieve.
With the number of illegal handguns circulating throughout this country, there will clearly always be the danger of further tragedies and, despite tighter controls on legally held weapons, the opportunity of acquiring illegal ones will always be there--and far too easily, I fear. Surely, that is where the real effort should be directed.
The question we need to ask ourselves is this: are we right to remove the privileges afforded to a very small minority of people simply because a system failed through no fault of their own? Of one thing I am quite certain: had the number of individuals participating in sports involving handguns been significant, we would not now be discussing the abolition of a large part of that sport. Instead, we would be concentrating our efforts solely on considering ways of tightening up the security of such weapons, and that is exactly the conclusions that were reached by Lord Cullen. The removal of the privileges of a minority who have done no wrong but who have been let down by a system is a dangerous one to operate within a democracy. I believe we do ourselves no favours.
However, as I have said earlier, I accept the position that the Government find themselves in, and I support this Bill. There will be much to do in Committee, of that there is no question of doubt, but I believe the Bill is worthy of support, although I give my support with rather a heavy heart.
7.37 p.m.
The Earl of Balfour: My Lords, I may have an advantage over many of your Lordships in that I followed through the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988. I was convinced then that the possession of shotguns and firearms had been made as restrictive as the law should make it. That 1988 Act was the panic result of the Hungerford massacre, which was very similar to the Dunblane tragedy. Unfortunately, this Bill before us today is another news media inspired panic Bill. I regret I do not know the background to the principal Act, the Firearms Act 1968, because that was a year before I took my seat in this House.
As I understand the position, we in Great Britain already have the strictest gun laws of any European country. However, there is nothing in our legislation requiring any person to have had any practical experience or safety instructions before being licensed to have a shotgun or firearm certificate. This is where our legislation has gone wrong, but I cannot and should not support the noble Earl, Lord Strafford, in his Motion.
When I took my seat in your Lordships' House, my wife said to me, "Criticise whatever you like but make certain that your criticism is always constructive and never destructive." That is a principle that I have always tried to follow in your Lordships' House.
When I was a teenager, I was put through the strictest gun training, under the estate gamekeeper, on the handling of all guns, as was the custom in those days. All the safety procedure was drilled into me and particularly that you never ever allowed a gun to be pointed at anybody, even when unloaded. I, and I think most of your Lordships who went through a similar gun training, could never, even in anger--except in war against an enemy--point a gun at anybody, because that etiquette was so drilled into us.
A number of European countries require a shooter to have some authorised instructions before being granted a gun licence. We require nothing. That is where the legislation before us is wrong and will do nothing to prevent another Hungerford or Dunblane.
Under the Bill compensation has to be considered. Many firearm certificate holders have bitter memories over the 1988 Act, when semi-automatic full-bore guns and rifles were banned. Many owners of such firearms received only a fraction of their gun's true market value and, I am told, many are still waiting for their cheque to arrive. No compensation was allowed for accessories, such as security lockers, which often cost as much as the gun, as my noble friend Lord Gisborough said.
The provisional estimate under this draconian Bill of doing away with all centre-fire pistols and other handguns is about £150 million. There are about 160,000 such legally held guns in circulation, which means that the compensation would be of a value of £937. I do not know whether or not that is a fair figure. However, Mr. Brian Carter of the Gun Trade Association, who is a member of the Government's Firearms Consultative Committee, as well as Mr. Graham Downing of the British Shooting Sports Council, estimate that a reasonable compensation payout is likely to be £1 billion. That figure includes accessories and allows some compensation to the many firearms dealers and manufacturers who will be forced out of business. I am pleased that my noble friend Lady Blatch said that she was considering compensation for accessories in respect of individuals. I am equally grateful for what the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, said about the manufacturers of these guns.
By successive legislation, reducing the variety of guns that can lawfully be held, this Government are strangling our very important gun, rifle and pistol
manufacturers. I ask your Lordships to remember that many of the best guns are virtually hand made. It would be a tragedy if this trade went overseas to, say, Spain.So, not only will this emotive, panic Bill that is before us cost the taxpayer a lot of money, but it is also bound to increase the number of unemployed. Has the Government's Firearms Consultative Committee considered that? Furthermore, I ask the Government to bear in mind that, if we lose the manufacture of fine quality guns, we may lose other industries, such as the skilled spring manufacturers--and we use springs, almost all hand made, in a hundred household items. We all know that it is through education that we become fit and proper members of society. Around this country there are a number of shooting schools and gun clubs, where qualified instructors can and do teach people to shoot carefully and accurately. The instructors that I have met are competent and dedicated to their job.
It should not be difficult for the Government to introduce legislation requiring every prospective gun or firearms owner to go to a shooting school and for that school to grant a certificate of competency to those persons who have reached the required standard or discipline, as mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Slim. That standard could be checked by the police. But any person who fails to obtain a certificate of competency should not be permitted by the police to hold a shotgun licence or firearm certificate. The police should also be allowed to refuse a licence to anybody about whom they are suspicious, unless that person has obtained a certificate of competency from an authorised shooting school.
Any person who at present holds a gun or firearms licence from the police for a period of, say, 10 years, should be required to obtain a shooting certificate of competency from an authorised shooting school before being able to renew such licence. In future, persons who hold a shooting certificate of competency should, at the end of, say, 10 years, be required to go back to a shooting school on a refresher course and obtain an endorsement of competency.
While we cannot legislate against the maniac behind a gun or behind the wheel of a car, at least the driver of a car should have passed a driving test, which now includes a written test. No such test is required for guns. Unfortunately, the gamekeepers of yesteryear have almost disappeared. But had Thomas Hamilton been required to obtain a shooting certificate, I think the police at Dunblane would have weeded him out or at least would have had greater powers to take action on suspicion. Those of us who have been properly taught about guns look after them most carefully and guard them with our lives. Properly taught and responsible people do not abuse privileges.
Let me take one other example, that of explosives. No legislation is being considered to control the availability of fireworks. Public records show that there were over 1,500 firework injuries in the years 1994 and 1995; and this year there have been three deaths. If the Government introduce legislation requiring gun owners to go through a proper training it would cost the
taxpayer nothing, but would go a very long way towards only responsible persons being able to hold the guns that they wish to hold.7.50 p.m.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, like many noble Lords I have an interest to declare as, from time to time, I fire full bore handguns at the Palace of Westminster Rifle Club. I also train with the TA, but I do not hold a firearm or shotgun certificate. Incidentally, the Palace of Westminster Rifle Club is not packed with "gun-ho" Members of another place as suggested in the media. They are far too busy representing their constituents. In fact, on my last visit the two previous firers were both young ladies, presumably employees of one or other of our Houses.
I shall never forget the atmosphere in your Lordships' House on that fateful day in March when we received the dreadful news from Dunblane. We could not make any sense of it then and we cannot make sense of it now. My heart goes out to all those affected in Dunblane. I am sure that in similar circumstances I would feel the same as they do and take the same course of action.
It is interesting to compare the number of speakers today with those for the Second Reading debate of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1994, to which I contributed. Other contributors included the noble Lords, Lord Renton, Lord Kimball, Lord Monson, Lord Swansea, Lord Williams of Mostyn and Lord Annaly. While recognising that it was a Private Member's Bill and not amenable to amendment, I do not recall anyone, including the Opposition, saying that we must ban all handguns as a matter of extreme urgency. After Hungerford I cannot see how the events of Dunblane can be said to be unimaginable or unforeseeable. Having said that, all contributions to the debate are welcome.
I sometimes wonder, when discussing this matter with the other parties, whether they have actually read all of the report of Lord Cullen.
I listened with interest to the Minister when she repeated almost word for word the concerns of her right honourable friend the Secretary of State in another place involving shooters who,
- "don the trappings of combat".
There is no need for me to discuss the general merits and background of the Bill. I could not possibly improve on the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, and indeed many others. But I am worried about the lax controls on shotguns. Certain noble Lords seem to think that their shotgun and field sports are safe. But if Dunblane had been perpetrated with a shotgun I am sure the Minister would now be explaining how dangerous a shotgun was; that it was used to kill living things while a handgun was only used for target practice. No doubt she would say that a handgun was safer as it could be moved discreetly and could be
locked away in a floor safe. She might also describe the power and the size of a shotgun cartridge compared with that of a handgun.Shotguns are extremely dangerous weapons and it is pointless to have Draconian rules for firearms while treating shotguns as toys. I shall be considering tabling or supporting amendments to address that problem. I do not believe that we have a problem with a specific type of weapon; rather we have a problem with control and administration, as many other noble Lords have said.
Shortly after the Dunblane tragedy I contacted a relative who had been a firearms officer in a West Country city. He had received no training; he was not an authorised shot; and he had no special knowledge of firearms. I was not perturbed or surprised because he was "in the chair" well before Hungerford and I thought things would be different now. So I was not a little surprised when I read Lord Cullen's report at paragraph 6.46 where he discussed the part played by the firearms inquiry officer and said,
- "It was her one and only firearms enquiry".
Matters do not seem to have progressed very far. There is one criticism of the police that I do not believe to be fair and that concerns their handling of the events of that fateful day. My heart goes out not only to the victims and their families, but also to those who had to try and manage an incident that was infinitely worse than anything they could possibly have planned for or imagined.
The noble Earls, Lord Shrewsbury and Lord Peel, and others touched on the concept of a firearms control board. I support that suggestion but there is an obstacle. The noble Earl, Lord Peel, mentioned the cost. The Home Secretary's reply to a Written Question in another place makes it clear (at col. 287 on 20th July 1994) that a civilian firearms control board would be beneficial to all. He then went on to say that it had been discovered that it was not economic. I find that extremely interesting. I am president of the Heavy Transport Association and we appear to have a similar situation with regard to the private escorting of abnormal loads on motorways and linked dual carriageways. I suspect that the reason in both cases is that ACPO and its Scottish equivalent are following a fundamental rule of public administration; that is, not to voluntarily reduce the size of your train set!
The noble Earl, Lord Balfour, rightly mentioned training and experience. The control board would be able to ensure that shooters had the right level of experience for their authorisation. Time is marching on, so I will not trouble your Lordships with any more detail in regard to control except to say that I would expect it to reduce unnecessary ownership considerably and in particular inappropriate types of weapon. It might also have a role with regard to knives.
On glancing through the Bill there are some commonsense exemptions to the ban on handguns. However, Clause 4 is a little alarming. Its effect would allow the use of a working handgun to start races at an athletics meeting and presumably in schools as well. That is incredible. It is hard to believe that it was drafted after the events of Dunblane. Is the Minister aware that
it is easy to kill someone by firing a blank if the muzzle of the revolver is pressed against the victim's head? Is she aware that safe blank firing guns are available that make it unnecessary to use a firearm for that purpose. They can probably also be connected to timing mechanisms. If the Minister thinks that this is a well thought-out Bill, I would hate to see a bad one. This clause will require attention in Committee, as will Section 11(2) of the 1968 Act.My last observation concerns the confusion over who needs certificates and for what; it is a complicated area. Perhaps we should consider a number of different classes, each one allowing greater access to guns. There could also be different age limits for each class which would allow for early tutoring. No doubt age limits will be discussed during the Committee stage.
We certainly require legislation in this area and the FCC reports identify many important points. We need a regime whereby shooters can carry out their legitimate sport while at the same time providing proper protection for the public.
7.58 p.m.
Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, I share with other noble Lords the deep sense of grief over the Dunblane massacre. It confirms in my mind the belief that there is no place in our society for guns other than those for which there is a legitimate use and by persons with a legitimate reason to use them.
The spectre of a gun society such as that in the United States being forced upon us unless a total ban of all guns, particularly handguns, is enforced is probably somewhat overdrawn. As noble Lords will know, there are constitutional reasons that make it difficult to improve the gun control situation in the United States.
There is no doubt that in America there are horrendous statistics of gun-related deaths; for instance, 35,000 people each year are killed, many completely accidentally, due to loaded weapons being made available to children, individuals using them without knowing the working of a gun, or the fatal conclusion of the family tiff. Fortunately, our present firearms control legislation, one of the strictest in the world, prevents that situation.
The proposed extension of the legislation to ban certain calibre handguns will make the legislation even more rigorous. I believe that this House would wish to see rigorous regulation of firearms but that that regulation should not be so rigid as seriously to disadvantage groups which hitherto have had a perfectly legitimate right to own and use certain calibre handguns. One such group with a legitimate right are those whose task it is humanely to kill or slaughter animals, such as veterinary surgeons, hunt officials and knackermen. As my noble friend the Minister said earlier, the exemption is provided under Clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill. In that case the calibre of weapon is either .32 or .35, the .22 calibre being insufficient to dispatch a horse efficiently and humanely.
At this point, perhaps I may take the opportunity to correct an impression created at the Committee stage of the Bill in another place when the Minister of State,
Miss Ann Widdecombe, implied that the British Veterinary Association did not agree to the proposed exemption in Clause 3. That is reported at col. 860 of Hansard of 19th November. I should like to state that both the British Veterinary Association and the British Equine Veterinary Association are emphatically in favour of those exemptions. As a member of the veterinary profession, I may be one of the few people in your Lordships' House who is legally entitled to have a high calibre pistol in his possession.I hope your Lordships will agree that veterinary surgeons and others are responsible and trustworthy people to hold handguns of a higher calibre than .22. The restriction placed on them is rigorous--I know that--but people who have these guns for that purpose live with the regulations and by the regulations. I would submit also that there are other responsible and trustworthy individuals who at present are able to hold handguns of various calibres and who would be deprived of this ability by the new legislation with the exemption of holding .22 calibre weapons; in other words, members of gun clubs, competition marksmen and the like. One is very much aware of the strong feeling on the part of those individuals who point out in letters and lobbying documentation that their firearms are prized, that they look after them with great care and that their firearms are not in any way akin to what is called the "Saturday night special", which is common in the United States and which inflicts the majority of the damage that we hear about. Their guns are not the ones that cause the problem.
As we can learn what not to do from the United States, perhaps we can learn what we might possibly do on the positive side to modify what members of gun clubs see as an unfair situation by an examination of what happens in Australia. In Tasmania there was a comparable tragedy of many people being killed by the use of a repeating rifle. It was not a handgun, but it had the same disastrous effect.
In Australia the possession of handguns has always been strictly controlled. They are owned only by members of shooting clubs approved by a licensing board. Individuals are licensed by that board. A member of a club must participate in club functions at least four times a year. He does not need to go to the gun club simply for a social reason. Individuals not conforming to those conditions may lose their licence and have it revoked for an extended period of time. Guns may be kept at home but in a reinforced concrete facility--a storage room--with double locks and often a timelock too. Ammunition is kept separately.
I have seen facilities in Australia and I have been greatly impressed by the extremely responsible attitude taken by members of gun sports clubs there. Something similar to that in this country, with the same rigour of control, would be a response to the proposal for a total ban on handguns other than the .22 calibre and would not negate the overall aim of tightening gun control so that the possession of illegal firearms was greatly reduced and, one might hope eventually, eliminated altogether. It is not the legal guns that are the problem;
it is the illegal guns that define the problem. I support the Bill in the hope that it will eventually lead to a marked reduction in illegal guns.8.7 p.m.
Lord Burton: My Lords, on entering my car three or four days ago, I turned on the wireless and heard a very senior Government Minister's voice stating, "We must not hurry these matters. It is important to get them right". It transpired that he was talking about something else, but how right he would have been if he had applied it to this Bill.
One consolation so far as we are concerned is that the Government have rushed the Bill through the other place at such a speed that the Bill has had totally inadequate consideration. There can therefore be no complaint from the other place if your Lordships, whether hereditary or life Peers, returned the Bill with substantial amendments.
I am quite confident that the desire of everyone in this House will be to secure, as far as possible, the safety of the public. We have not heard that said this evening. As has already been stated, the Bill will do little or nothing to achieve that safety. Just like the 1988 legislation, it is being rushed through when what we need--and the country really needs--is fully considered firearms legislation. I am confident that we can produce a number of amendments which will vastly improve the security of firearms and thereby the safety of the public.
We really must not forget that legally-held firearms certificates should be given only to law-abiding citizens and, provided the police do their duty, the current laws should ensure that that is the case.
Most of your Lordships will have received large numbers of letters from pistol shooters. It is clear from those the anguish which the proposals in the Bill have caused; the feelings of injustice that they are being punished for something that was nothing to do with them. I am sure many noble Lords will remember being punished at school for something one had not done. That punishment always hurt more than those that were justified. I can say that from experience.
But if people are to lose their livelihoods--a business built up over the years; perhaps a job as a skilled tradesman, possibly going bankrupt as several businesses have done at the threat of this legislation--then one must look for some justification for rendering pistols illegal. When one looks at this matter it is very difficult to find any justification. So it is more than possible to understand the bitterness not only of 50,000 pistol shooters but of many more ancillaries, families and friends and, indeed, many rifle target shooters who will have to close down. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Monson, mentioned a figure of 100,000 plus. To my mind, that is a substantial number.
Many of the shooters have said that they would hurry to dispose of their pistols if there was any prospect of that saving life, but this legislation does not do that. If the police had carried out proper procedures at Hungerford and Dunblane, the fact that the answers on
the firearms applications were not correct would have come to light and no certificates would have been issued.The police were to blame for both these disasters and not the law-abiding shooters, who are now being victimised. It was not the fault of the Acts passed in 1968, 1988, 1992 and 1994. The blame was entirely due to the maladministration of the police. For instance, Hamilton applied for a certificate to use a full-bore pistol with the Clyde Valley Club in 1979-80. That pistol club used the range underneath Hamilton police station. It was only licensed for the use of small bore weapons and yet Hamilton applied for a full-bore weapon. In addition, the police never made a check to see whether or not Hamilton was in fact a member of the club. A mere telephone call to the secretary would have quickly put that matter right. The police removed that club's documentation and records, ostensibly for the Cullen inquiry and for the fatal accident inquiry. In fact, the club has had no records since last March. The police left neither a receipt nor, I believe, did they have a warrant. The club could not even secure copies of their records. Noble Lords will appreciate that that makes it rather difficult for a secretary to run the club.
I understand that another club member from the central area applied for the renewal of his certificate for shooting with the Clyde Valley Club, after Lord Cullen had reported. This was granted by central police and in spite of all that had just transpired, this force never consulted the Clyde Valley Club secretary to ascertain whether the applicant was a member.
This club has made a number of applications for the return of its documents and even though the fatal accident inquiry took place on 28th of last month--and I know that the Minister has tried to help to get these documents or copies thereof sent to the club--nothing has yet arrived. A lawyer has also been taken on to try to get recovery of the documents.
Why is there all this secrecy? Why will the police not return these documents? Could it be that the documents show that in fact there were further inadequacies and maladministration by the central police? It seems that instead of taking the advice in 1987 of my noble friend Lord Marlesford, and a number of other people, that further supervision was required--I believe that the Government have had similar advice from their Firearms Consultative Committee--that has been constantly refused. Indeed, a recent conference of police superintendents called for a central weapons database. But why was Deputy Chief Constable McMurdo, whom your Lordships will remember was one of the senior police officers who resigned immediately after the closing of the Cullen inquiry, appointed as an Assistant Chief Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland? He was given that appointment on 13th March. Here is a man who was forced to resign being put in a position to advise all the other constabularies in Scotland on how to run their firearms procedures.
I believe that the English police do not yet have consolidated procedures to issue to their officers when making inquiries over firearms' applications. It is only in the past week or so that the Scottish forces have
managed to produce draft procedures. It may be of interest to note that the proposals submitted by the Central Force to this committee were rejected out of hand and I believe that something similar--because of their complication and draconian views--applied to Tayside. It is necessary to see the ACPO minutes and documents which they had been considering. If these are not available to individual Peers then a Select Committee of this House should be set up to examine these matters.There is a lot that has not come to light over this matter. Surely what is required is an inspectorate with proper firearms' expertise to advise the police forces. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, referred to that. Such a body would indeed lift a lot of the burden from the various chief constables and their firearms officers as they would be in a position to advise, quite apart from also being in a position to ensure, that the right procedures were being undertaken. This sort of operation should have been adopted immediately after Hungerford, but the lesson was not taken. Now we have another disaster and it is absolutely paramount for the safety of firearms management that these procedures are adopted. This is of vastly greater importance than the "ban", "ban", "ban" we have been hearing. Indeed, the current proposals to ban may have the reverse effect, according to Lord Cullen, and this, I am certain, would also be the view of a considerable number of your Lordships.
Are there not justifiable reasons for believing that there has been a big cover up over this horrid disaster at Dunblane? The biggest mistake has been to throw the blame upon the pistol and the pistol shooters, as it was thrown upon the firearms' fraternity at Hungerford. This is, therefore, the second time that the blame has been diverted from the police, where it should justly lie, on to innocent people.
Lord Cullen did a magnificent job on a very complicated matter, but there are serious matters which were never openly brought out at the inquiry. Unfortunately, the three pistol clubs involved, which could have revealed some of these matters, could not afford to be properly legally represented; and finance, which could have been made available to them, was withheld until it was too late for the inquiry.
Certain quarters have tried to attribute blame to Freemasonry. As the present Grand Master Mason in Scotland I can assure noble Lords that extensive searches of the records of Scottish Freemasonry have been carried out and no trace of Thomas Hamilton nor DCC McMurdo can be found as ever having been members of the Craft. The press have harassed the secretary of a Lodge called Garrowhill and considerably upset his wife, who is about to have a baby. This is iniquitous when Grand Lodge have been only too ready to reveal that there are two Thomas Hamiltons in this Lodge, but they are both alive and kicking--at least as far as the older of the two brothers are concerned, because he is over 90. There are a lot of "Hamiltons" living in the central belt of Scotland. The information
given to Mr. Frank Cook was inaccurate in many respects and I gather that his parliamentary researchers may have received misinformation.However, what was the cause of contact between Hamilton and DCC McMurdo who were reported to be meeting each other? There have inevitably been a number of rumours; talk of local politicians (not, I think, the Secretary of State) putting pressure on the police and there have been suggestions of blackmail. But unless there is an inquiry, presumably we will never know the real answers. There is certainly something very far wrong. It is a great pity that these matters never came out in public in the Cullen Inquiry. What is quite clear is that we now had two instances where the police have been seriously at fault over firearms. Are we to wait for a third disaster before action is taken, as is certain, unless proper steps are initiated? For instance, the Inspectorate of Constabularies in Scotland produced a thematic report on the administration of firearms in Scotland, with particular reference to the Central Force. This was published last March. A report on Hamilton was also produced by Chief Superintendent Paul Hughes for Lord Cullen, but in spite of repeated requests these papers have not been released.
The proposal to keep firearms in a central armoury would inevitably lead to trouble and, however secure, determined individuals could break in. For instance, the keyholder could be held up by somebody outside and threatened or his family could be threatened. It would be quite easy for someone to go into a central armoury. I understand that recently about 40 weapons were stolen from a police armoury in Bedfordshire. It appears that in recent weeks weapons have been stolen from a police station in Dumfriesshire. Police officers are the culprits in each case. The police say that they are the only ones who can be sufficiently responsible to take in the weapons. Does this mean that they do not trust the dealers to whom they have granted permits?
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